I am interested in what posters think about the possibility of the Draft being re-instated. I was in college during the late 60's during the Viet Nam War..when the last Draft was in place. I stayed out of school for 2 semesters..to work after a Hurricane,( Betsy ) hit our community in Louisiana, ( My father lost 2 businesses overnight)... I was called in for the Draft. I had a history of Asthma and was classified 4F..I was one of the Lucky Ones. I do not regret ..NOT going. During this period 1965 to 1970..life as a young adult was very tumultious to say the least. My Generation, was turned upside down as a result of the war in Viet Nam. A war that we lost, & now know was the result of poor leadership in our Government. 54,000 or so dead U.S. soldiers of my Generation. My friends that are still alive that went through the Viet Nam War are mostly all disabled Physically and or Mentally. Their Families still deal with issues that are a direct result of the trauma they encountered as a result of their combat experience. Their children have issues that they are living with from growing up in a household that was in a constant state of Flux. Viet Nam became a scar on my Generation's Soul, and the resulting psychological impact on those families that have love ones that served and came back ..still lingers today. I now have a Son that has just turned 18, entering adulthood with his future ahead of him...now he has to worry about the Spectre of being drafted into a War he, as well as we, his family do not support. I have seen what can happen to a nation that becomes divided..a generation who's lives that are held in limbo. I'm afraid if we don't reverse the direction we are heading in..it will be Viet Nam all over again. I am talking about..public protest in the streets,(possibly riots), rampant drug use and alcohol abuse from our young people who are living under a shroud of insecurity. Back in the late 60's the attitude was ..I might as well live it up quickly.. I might be dead shortly cause I'll be drafted into Viet Nam. This led to Alcohol abuse, Drug use, The Sexual revolution. Everyone went to the extremes...live for today..there may not be a tomorrow..I remember all of this. In my opinion..drafting 10's of thousands of young people to go fight in a war they do not support will lead to more human suffering. The bottom line is...we will not win a war of attrition with Islamic fanatics who embrace death. We must fight these zealots by isolating them..cutting off their resources...not by engaging them in combat on their terms. The Draft is a poor antidote for a failed policy! We are again, under the influence of Poor Leadership in this nation. Where is the Logic? How can we be so Ignorant and Niave with the lessons of Viet Nam available to draw from to help steer our current policy into the right direction in this Iraq debacle we call A war on Terror, is beyond my comprehension. Why & What exactly is the reasoning behind our Government's actions to continue wasting treasure and lives in this fabricated war In Iraq. Public opinion is overwhemingly against the war..as was projected in the last congressional elections. The people's will is being ignored by an obsessed Administration. A President's ego, or a Vendetta against Saddam that became out of control, War machine profits for select Gov. Contractors, etc. I can't believe that we have leaders that are so stupid and incompetent that they will waste our nations resources again for a lost national cause. A War created on false or speculative info at the best. It,( In my opinion), has to be something of a personal nature of our leadership or a very sinister plot of collective extremeist in our Own Gov. that continue to ignor the American citizen's Views and desires !.. What are your views? What do you think about the wispers taking place just recently in the halls of government..to broaden the War and re-instate the Draft?....................................." Deja Vu? "........KOONISM
This message has been edited. Last edited by: koonism,
Here's a Los Angeles Times article about the feasiblity of expanding the Army and Marines without a draft. Here's one observation:
By boosting incentives and bonus money, adding recruiters and continuing to increase the military advertising budget, the Army should be able to sign up an additional 10,000 people a year within the current all-volunteer system, according to many military experts. But they add that such an increase would be costly. An additional 10,000 soldiers would cost at least an additional $1.2 billion annually.
Why are we wanting to enlarge the military, (ground troops), in the first place? We are not fighting a traditional war, meaning 2 opposing Armies. We are fighting an Urban war of attrition..incorporating urban gurilla warfare. If we want to beat these fanatics we have to go after their source of suppliers, cut off their source of revenue. I don't think it will make a difference whether we put 100 thousand more troops on the ground or 300 thousand. They still have to travel down the same highways with the same IED's, go through the same towns with the same booby traps, car bombs. The more concentrated our troops are, the more casulties we will have. Like I said either adopt a scorced earth policy with massive arial bombardment or get out! We are fighting this conflict on the enemies terms.. we are reactive instead of being proactive. We do not have an offensive plan to win..it's all defense and response response response. As it was in Viet Nam..the more troops we put on the ground..the more body bags we will need. We need to pull out and let nature take over..they will kill each other until some dominate factor emerges..like it always has been in that region. We are trying to turn a Jackle into a rabbit. It is what it is..or they are what they are ...Barbarians...we are not going to be able to pound or kill them into civilized democratized human beings. What a waste of money and U.S. lives. I am not real religious but I ask god for some sanity to prevail in Washington D.C. I never would have imagined after Viet Nam we would have another group of incompetent leaders taking this nation down the path of stupidity. I know I speak very candidly about what I am thinking. I'm from the old school of the 60's & 70's. We did, as a formidable political force, change government policy back then..by peacefull protesting for the most part and ralleying to stop the Viet Nam War. From experience..I can tell you, we are seeing the same scenario emerge, a lost cause being propped up by a last effort to save face..that will not work. By increasing the level of troops to show some temporary success..the Government will try to convince the nation that the Draft will provide for more success. It will, like Viet Nam Fail in the long run. Been there, seen it before, ask most anyone from my Generation that wasn't brain washed what they think about the war politics of today..and they will overwhelmingly agree with me. We are in a situation and approaching the policies of the Viet Nam War..unfortunately... all over again!....like I said...Deje Vu.... Koonism
I think that your analogy between Iraq and Vietnam is an accurate one, to a point. There's an odd paradox at work. The popular support for the Iraq war has declined more rapidly than did support for the Vietnam war, yet because there isn't a draft, the protesting against the Iraq war hasn't yet reached anywhere near the same intensity. I think that if the Bush Administration instituted a draft, though, that would change overnight. (That's one reason why I don't see them bringing back the draft.)
I think the idea of having an all-volunteer military has a lot of positives, but it also creates some problems for us as a democracy. It's entirely possible now for political leaders to go to war (and remain at war) without wide popular support.
Yes, I agree. Just the hint of a Draft has a lot of my friends feathers ruffled. Of course most if not all of my friends, like I said, were young adults during Viet Nam. They are dusting off their old Peace flags..and protest gear, getting ready to hit the streets again if necessary. Some of them will probably need walkers, canes and wheel chairs to accomplish this..ha, ha. My wife is already looking at real estate in Canada. Tell me..how can a hand full of men in our government make policy that the public and the majority of both congressional parties in both houses overwhelmingly are against. There is nothing democratic about that kind of action. Just what is going on anyway? It seems Our president is dictating, rather than serving the will of the people. Now that's getting out of hand..something needs to be done about that. For better or worst..the Majority of the Amercan people have spoken..they want the troops brought back and the war shut down. We don't have to explain anything to the rest of the world, other than thats how a democracy works...when it's working. If our leaders don't comply with the will of the people..then we send another message to the rest of the world..."We are not a true Democracy" Our presence in Iraq fighting for the establishment of a democratic Government.then becomes: "An Endeavor Of Hypocrisy". Can the congress shut him down.. when it takes session after Jan 4th.07? He needs to be isolated from power. The poor guy has lost touch with reality up in the stratosphere of power. It's not unusual for that to happen with leaders that have personal agendas and are allowed to have unbridled power. He's getting Dangerously close to a level of power no other President has obtained...Even 4 term FDR needed congressional & public support for his policies during World War 2. I don't like what I'm seeing..it is very disturbing to me..I embrace freedom and democracy as a treasure for human rights. He has been sent a message by the American people...GET OUT OF IRAQ..now he must do it, or he needs to be fired! He works for us...we are his Boss..not the other way around. His actions are starting to say that he doesn't accept the role as a servant of the people. He needs a reality check and quickly. The more he gets away with, the more he wants. History tells us this is a slippery slope for a government and it's leader to transgress to. This type of abuse of power usually takes place under the guise of some type of National Security issue....Deja Vu???
This message has been edited. Last edited by: koonism,
you're not the only one asking whether the Bush Administration has tried to amass too much unbridled authority. It'll be interesting to see how the Democrats confront this in the next Congress.
Well pat..I'm going to give this post a few legs today.I told you a while back that the whole region was heading towards a major conflict. You remember the historical Shite Sunni thing those people love to kill for.. since the death of Ali the revered son in law of Mohammed. His assination was the catalyst for the Shite Sect. Around 670 AD. Although Islam was Born of Violence, Since then there has been a steady dose of killing between the two sects and among tribs within the sects. It's a way of life. That is and should have always been an Arab thing. After the discovery of oil, ( in Iran), prior to WW-1..we have meddled in their internal business. The Brits tried to convert them after the ottomans/Turks were defeated..they left with disgust. They were disgusted at the level of killing that took place between tribes..and came to the conclusion that they could not come together for anything. So..that brings us to today. It is starting to look like a major conflict is in the making..Iran and the Shites...against Saudi Arabia and the Sunnis. As disgusting as war is..it is what humans do from time to time. Our problem is .we have continued to turn a blind eye to the inevitable..it was going to eventually happen. Because We have not found another resource for energy since our Government is being run by the capitalist of this nation, we will pay a huge price in the very near future. Now..because of Bad Government..Bad Leaders..Unscrupulous Greedy Industrialist..we are going to have to go into The mid east on the Side of Saudis,(Sunnis) and defeat the Shites of Iran. The current Gov. in Iraq that we helped come into power are predominately Shites. It's a mess on a leviatan scale. Oh yes..the Draft is coming.. again the coffers of capitalism has to be drenced with the blood from the youth of this nation. Old men counting their blood money while we waste another generation of American youth. We are a Nation with Idiots for leaders. Not just recently..but for the last 60 years..it's no wonder a bunch of barbarians are out thinking us. Send in 20 thousand more troops...what a joke.. How stupid does this administration think the people of this nation are. We can see right through the flawed leadership that has propelled us into this situation. Instead of trying to talk to all of these nations in some sort of summit. Our president continues to pour gasoline on a fire that is out of control and spreading rapidly. I never came out and said this before but I will now. His administration needs to be Impeached.. a coup de ta, they are plunging this nation into depts not seen since the Civil War. I am upset..I have an 18 year old son and he and his friends are worried about their future....Just like me and my friends were worried about our futures in 1966 the year I graduated from high school. This was right before the Last Draft was instated for another fabricated war..Viet Nam.. It's.. De Ja Vue.. for sure. What a Mess we are in.
Here's a bit of news that won't have you resting any easier: According to this December 24article in the Detroit Free Press, the Selective Service system plans a test run of the military draft machinery for the first time since 1988. The exercise isn't scheduled until 2009, but as the story notes,
Word of the test comes as President George W. Bush and Congress take up plans to expand the overall size of the Army and Marine Corps. Both services have been stretched thin by extended deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This may be some comfort: Bush and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have said they oppose bringing back the draft.
The story also notes that in order for the government to restart the draft, Congress would first have to authorize it. Selective Service would then have about six months to deliver the first draftees to the military. The first to be called would be men who turn 20 years old during the year of the draft.
Maybe this will be more comforting. Here's something more on the draft from PBS newsman Jim Lehrer's recent interview with President Bush:
MR. LEHRER: Well, for instance, Mr. President, some people have asked why -- and I would ask you about -- have you considered some kind of national service program, that would be civilian as well as military, that would involve more people in the effort to - not just militarily, but you talk about ideology, all this sort of stuff - in other words, to kind of muster the support of young Americans, and other Americans, in this struggle that you say is so monumental and so important.
PRESIDENT BUSH: Yeah, I have considered whether it ought to be compulsory, non-military service, I guess is the best way to put it. I'm not for compulsory military service, by the way. I think the volunteer army is working and we got to keep it strong.
I made the decision early on to set up what's - something called the USA Freedom Corps, which could encourage volunteerism; call people to take time out of their lives to serve our country with compassionate acts. And by the way, volunteerism is high in America.
But no, you know, I thought through compulsory national service and thought that the route that we picked was the best route.
Thanks for your reply on this subject. I feel that we are into and heading into an even broader conflict that will continue to expand perhaps even beyond the Mid East. What will happen if the oil spigot is shut off from the Mid East region..What will China do, Japan, Europe, and of course What will we do? We had better be looking into alternative fuels very quickly and establishing some type of fuel rationing and mass transit system. How is a world wide fuel crisi going to effect the western economies based on capitalism? How quickly can forces and contractors enter a Nuked out Mid East Oilfield and begin production and pipelining/shipping by tankers..what will be the risk. Maybe the best thing to do if everything else fails to avoid conflict..is to allow it to happen and if it is not quickly resolved..Nuke the whole area..go in and get the oil flowing again. Make a deal with Russia, China and the Europeans to split up the spoils..we don't need the Mid East..we just need the oil..and that resides some 2 to 4 miles down. It will still be there after everything on the surface is fried!
I don't know if we can depend upon China as an ally, considering that according to this NYT article, they're trying to figure out how to shoot down our satellites. But I agree with you that developing alternative fuels and improving energy efficiency is very important for U.S. national security. If we had invested the money that we've wasted in Iraq on those things, we'd be a lot safer and more secure, I think.
I came across this article from the Kansas City Star, which looks at whether the drawn-out war in Iraq may eventually necessitate a return to a military draft:
The war in Iraq marks the first time in modern history that the United States has fought an extended conflict with an all-volunteer military.
The strain of fighting nearly four years in a two-front war has put unprecedented stress on the Army and the Marine Corps - which have borne the brunt of the fighting - and has raised serious questions about whether an all-volunteer force can be maintained over the long term.
Even if U.S. troops were to pull out of Iraq tomorrow, the United States faces a war of unknown duration against al-Qaida in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Other threats include Iran and North Korea.
The Iraq Study Group warned in its report last month that the war in Iraq has put the country in a bind.
"An extraordinary amount of sacrifice has been asked of our men and women in uniform, and of their families," the group wrote. "The American military has little reserve force to call on if it needs ground forces to respond to other crises around the world."
"I think America is on a collision course with itself because America has worldwide obligations," said Frank Schaeffer, co-author of "AWOL: The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes From Military Service - and How It Hurts Our Country."
"All it's going to take is one more conflict or one more world crisis," Schaeffer said, "and we would be very soon facing the fact that no matter what our position on these issues is, we're going to be facing a simple choice of act or don't act. And if we do, then we're going to have to have alternatives."
Yes, it's a sad dose of reality...We are heading into some dangerous times for our Planet. I'm afaid a nuke showdown is inevitable this time since we are now dealing with low IQ Barbarians holding reigns of power wanting to use WMD's to expand their influence and Idealology worldwide. It's all about Power..again..How many more millions of people will have to die to satisfy the lust for power. Humans beings have a real Flaw...the emotional part of our Brains..you know the same thing that allows us to love..cry.. laugh ,feel sad...also permits us to kill, rape, hate, be Greedy...Be IN-Charge. Half of the people I grew up with are probably good canidates for a frontal lobotomy. I guess it's a sign of the times. Our emersion into Decadence, our loss of morals over material things has brought us to a stark reality..we will no longer be able to survive on this planet if we don't make some HUGH Sacrifices and Changes. I really don't think that is going to happen..it is just not our Human nature to make collective changes without mandatory govermental directives. With that being said..Yes..the Draft will no doubt be instituted in the name of National Security. Another generation or two will be forever affected by another war that could have been avoided, A war fabricated for the purpose of wanting a fight with an Idealogy that embraces death. How can one win a non-conventional,(urban Gurilla War), war with an enemy that wants to die. At home I think the fight will be between True Democracy and Unbridled Capitalism...again. Capitalism usually wins with little or no concessions. It's a sad mess we are in...again.
Actually I agree with you on the sorry leadership during the Johnson administration,and Jimmy Carters attempt to rescue the embassy staff in Iran,Two of the worst presidents in American history. Now here is a point to remember that any one who wears a star is a politicion,nothing more nothing less. ABOUT your asthma was it real or imagined,now that is the perfect cop-out. How much did you pay the doc for that evaluation>
quote:
Originally posted by koonism: I am interested in what posters think about the possibility of the Draft being re-instated. I was in college during the late 60's during the Viet Nam War..when the last Draft was in place. I stayed out of school for 2 semesters..to work after a Hurricane,( Betsy ) hit our community in Louisiana, ( My father lost 2 businesses overnight)... I was called in for the Draft. I had a history of Asthma and was classified 4F..I was one of the Lucky Ones. I do not regret ..NOT going. During this period 1965 to 1970..life as a young adult was very tumultious to say the least. My Generation, was turned upside down as a result of the war in Viet Nam. A war that we lost, & now know was the result of poor leadership in our Government. 54,000 or so dead U.S. soldiers of my Generation. My friends that are still alive that went through the Viet Nam War are mostly all disabled Physically and or Mentally. Their Families still deal with issues that are a direct result of the trauma they encountered as a result of their combat experience. Their children have issues that they are living with from growing up in a household that was in a constant state of Flux. Viet Nam became a scar on my Generation's Soul, and the resulting psychological impact on those families that have love ones that served and came back ..still lingers today. I now have a Son that has just turned 18, entering adulthood with his future ahead of him...now he has to worry about the Spectre of being drafted into a War he, as well as we, his family do not support. I have seen what can happen to a nation that becomes divided..a generation who's lives that are held in limbo. I'm afraid if we don't reverse the direction we are heading in..it will be Viet Nam all over again. I am talking about..public protest in the streets,(possibly riots), rampant drug use and alcohol abuse from our young people who are living under a shroud of insecurity. Back in the late 60's the attitude was ..I might as well live it up quickly.. I might be dead shortly cause I'll be drafted into Viet Nam. This led to Alcohol abuse, Drug use, The Sexual revolution. Everyone went to the extremes...live for today..there may not be a tomorrow..I remember all of this. In my opinion..drafting 10's of thousands of young people to go fight in a war they do not support will lead to more human suffering. The bottom line is...we will not win a war of attrition with Islamic fanatics who embrace death. We must fight these zealots by isolating them..cutting off their resources...not by engaging them in combat on their terms. The Draft is a poor antidote for a failed policy! We are again, under the influence of Poor Leadership in this nation. Where is the Logic? How can we be so Ignorant and Niave with the lessons of Viet Nam available to draw from to help steer our current policy into the right direction in this Iraq debacle we call A war on Terror, is beyond my comprehension. Why & What exactly is the reasoning behind our Government's actions to continue wasting treasure and lives in this fabricated war In Iraq. Public opinion is overwhemingly against the war..as was projected in the last congressional elections. The people's will is being ignored by an obsessed Administration. A President's ego, or a Vendetta against Saddam that became out of control, War machine profits for select Gov. Contractors, etc. I can't believe that we have leaders that are so stupid and incompetent that they will waste our nations resources again for a lost national cause. A War created on false or speculative info at the best. It,( In my opinion), has to be something of a personal nature of our leadership or a very sinister plot of collective extremeist in our Own Gov. that continue to ignor the American citizen's Views and desires !.. What are your views? What do you think about the wispers taking place just recently in the halls of government..to broaden the War and re-instate the Draft?....................................." Deja Vu? "........KOONISM
Originally posted by koonism: Yes, I agree. Just the hint of a Draft has a lot of my friends feathers ruffled. Of course most if not all of my friends, like I said, were young adults during Viet Nam. They are dusting off their old Peace flags..and protest gear, getting ready to hit the streets again if necessary. Some of them will probably need walkers, canes and wheel chairs to accomplish this..ha, ha. My wife is already looking at real estate in Canada. Tell me..how can a hand full of men in our government make policy that the public and the majority of both congressional parties in both houses overwhelmingly are against. There is nothing democratic about that kind of action. Just what is going on anyway? It seems Our president is dictating, rather than serving the will of the people. Now that's getting out of hand..something needs to be done about that. For better or worst..the Majority of the Amercan people have spoken..they want the troops brought back and the war shut down. We don't have to explain anything to the rest of the world, other than thats how a democracy works...when it's working. If our leaders don't comply with the will of the people..then we send another message to the rest of the world..."We are not a true Democracy" Our presence in Iraq fighting for the establishment of a democratic Government.then becomes: "An Endeavor Of Hypocrisy". Can the congress shut him down.. when it takes session after Jan 4th.07? He needs to be isolated from power. The poor guy has lost touch with reality up in the stratosphere of power. It's not unusual for that to happen with leaders that have personal agendas and are allowed to have unbridled power. He's getting Dangerously close to a level of power no other President has obtained...Even 4 term FDR needed congressional & public support for his policies during World War 2. I don't like what I'm seeing..it is very disturbing to me..I embrace freedom and democracy as a treasure for human rights. He has been sent a message by the American people...GET OUT OF IRAQ..now he must do it, or he needs to be fired! He works for us...we are his Boss..not the other way around. His actions are starting to say that he doesn't accept the role as a servant of the people. He needs a reality check and quickly. The more he gets away with, the more he wants. History tells us this is a slippery slope for a government and it's leader to transgress to. This type of abuse of power usually takes place under the guise of some type of National Security issue....Deja Vu???
QUOTE. Gen Curtis Le May nuke em then pave over the land mark off the runway,s stick the remnants head,s into the sand, and use their backsides as landing lights. Yea Sure how is an airplane going to occupy the land.
quote:
Originally posted by koonism: Why are we wanting to enlarge the military, (ground troops), in the first place? We are not fighting a traditional war, meaning 2 opposing Armies. We are fighting an Urban war of attrition..incorporating urban gurilla warfare. If we want to beat these fanatics we have to go after their source of suppliers, cut off their source of revenue. I don't think it will make a difference whether we put 100 thousand more troops on the ground or 300 thousand. They still have to travel down the same highways with the same IED's, go through the same towns with the same booby traps, car bombs. The more concentrated our troops are, the more casulties we will have. Like I said either adopt a scorced earth policy with massive arial bombardment or get out! We are fighting this conflict on the enemies terms.. we are reactive instead of being proactive. We do not have an offensive plan to win..it's all defense and response response response. As it was in Viet Nam..the more troops we put on the ground..the more body bags we will need. We need to pull out and let nature take over..they will kill each other until some dominate factor emerges..like it always has been in that region. We are trying to turn a Jackle into a rabbit. It is what it is..or they are what they are ...Barbarians...we are not going to be able to pound or kill them into civilized democratized human beings. What a waste of money and U.S. lives. I am not real religious but I ask god for some sanity to prevail in Washington D.C. I never would have imagined after Viet Nam we would have another group of incompetent leaders taking this nation down the path of stupidity. I know I speak very candidly about what I am thinking. I'm from the old school of the 60's & 70's. We did, as a formidable political force, change government policy back then..by peacefull protesting for the most part and ralleying to stop the Viet Nam War. From experience..I can tell you, we are seeing the same scenario emerge, a lost cause being propped up by a last effort to save face..that will not work. By increasing the level of troops to show some temporary success..the Government will try to convince the nation that the Draft will provide for more success. It will, like Viet Nam Fail in the long run. Been there, seen it before, ask most anyone from my Generation that wasn't brain washed what they think about the war politics of today..and they will overwhelmingly agree with me. We are in a situation and approaching the policies of the Viet Nam War..unfortunately... all over again!....like I said...Deje Vu.... Koonism
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