So, one good thing that Bear does is inspire people to learn more about survival. I am one of those people, though I already do a lot of outdoors stuff. In order to do that, (and I’m not gonna lie, it’s also so I can debate more effectively here! ) I downloaded a copy of FM 21-76-1. Here’s a few things I noticed as I read through it as they pertain to Bear and the show MvW. Of course, I ignored anything having to do with combat zones or AVOIDING detection as not applicable. (Italicized portions are direct quotes from the manual. …Assuming it shows up in the post because I’m doing this over time in a Word doc first!)

Attitude
This recently came up between bc and myself. Bear is always touting keeping a positive attitude as an important part of survival. I couldn’t help but notice that this manual mentions this as well, in several places.

Moving
Though it is common advice to stay put where you are and wait for rescue (even from Bear), and the manual mentions that too, it does also suggest that there are times when moving on is a good thing:

"b. Leave only when
(2) Are certain of your location, have a known destination,
and have the ability to get there.
(3) Can reach water, food, shelter, and/or help.
(4) Convinced rescue is not coming."

This supports Bear’s oft repeated maxim that what he does is for “extreme” circumstances. Obviously, it is acknowledged that there are times when moving on is necessary or even beneficial. Those might not be the most common times, but they do happen.

Navigation

Just noticed under this section that two of the techniques listed for finding direction, the stick method and the watch method were taught by Bear in the show. I know he taught the watch method correctly, and IIRC that’s also true for the stick method.

Travel Considerations

"a. Pick the easiest and safest route (non-combat)."

Here, you will see I am fair minded and reasonable, because Bear rarely does this! Lol

"e. Take special care of feet (change socks regularly)."

Oddly enough, Bear seems to mention this a lot. Maybe it just stood out to me, for some reason, but he is always mentioning the dangers of not caring for your feet; making sure you dry them by the fire, cutting drainage holes in you shoes (not actually sure how good an idea that is, but anyway…), etc.

"g. Go around obstacles, not over or through them."

The bold in that sentence is NOT my emphasis. It is in the manual. And this is obviously a guideline Bear breaks repeatedly. I won’t try and defend it. Not here anyway.

"k. Consider the following for swamps, lakes, and unfordable
rivers:
(1) Circumnavigate swamps, lakes, and bogs if needed.
(2) Travel downstream to find people and slower water.
(3) Travel upstream to find narrower and shallow water."

This is a mixed bag for Bear. He rarely “circumnavigates” anything! Lol. But he is big on following streams and rivers downstream to find “civilization.”

River Travel
No sh!t? I thought for sure this was only an “adventure” thing Bear did for excitement. But, what do you know, the manual advises this!

"River travel may be faster and save energy when hypothermia is
not a factor. It may be a primary mode of travel and LOC in a
tropical environment (use with caution if evading).
a. Use flotation device (raft, log, bamboo, etc.).
b. Use a pole to move the raft in shallow water.
c. Use an oar in deep water.
d. Stay near inside edge of river bends (current speed is less).
e. Keep near shore.
f. Watch for the following DANGERS:
(1) Snags.
(2) Sweepers (overhanging limbs and trees).
(3) Rapids (DO NOT attempt to shoot the rapids).
(4) Waterfalls.
(5) Hazardous animals.
g. Consider using a flotation device when crossing rivers or
large/deep streams."

Shoot. That’s pretty much exactly the stuff Bear did and talked about. (Now, I know some of y’all are going to point out that he used a real flotation device underneath his “homemade” one in one episode, but that’s besides the point here.)

Ice and Snow Travel

Didn’t find much in here that’s come up in the show, except this:

"c. Glacier travel is hazardous and should be avoided."

Um, yeah.

Dry Climates

"a. DO NOT travel unless certain of reaching the destination
using the water supply available."

Okay, I suppose it’s debatable, but Bear’s schtick is that the show is for extreme cases, presumably meeting the criteria of when to move on as listed above. That being the case, he doesn’t necessarily violate this principle. But, I can understand people bagging on him for this.

"b. Travel at dawn or dusk on hot days."

He did talk about this in last season’s desert episode.

Tropical Climates

"b. Avoid obstacles like thickets and swamps."

Clearly, Bear doesn’t do that. But, neither would it always be possible.

First Aid Stuff

Most of this is not applicable, but I did find the following.

"j. Dysentery and diarrhea.
(1) Drink extra water.
(2) Use a liquid diet.
(3) Eat charcoal. Make a paste by mixing fine charcoal"

When he had diarrhea in a recent episode, he did grind up some charcoal and drink it.

Hygiene

Again, mostly not applicable. But I did find this.

"(3) Cleanse mouth and brush teeth.
(a) Use hardwood twig as toothbrush (fray it by chewing
on one end then use as brush)."

Bear has demonstrated this, IIRC.

Getting Wet

"g. If you fall into the water in the winter—
(1) Build fire.
(2) Remove wet clothing and rewarm by fire.
(3) Finish drying clothing by fire."

IIRC, this is fairly consistent with what Bear does on the show. He also does a lot of pushups and jogging in place, which this does not mention.

Shelters

There was a lot in this section that Bear never talks about. However, I didn’t find any guidelines that Bear was breaking from this section either.

Fires

"Note: If possible, carry a fire-starting device with you."

Lol! Bear certainly does this!

"Tinder… Kindling… Fuel…"

Everything Bear does seems consistent with this section.

Water Procurement

"a. DO NOT drink—
(1) Urine.
(2) Fish juices.
(3) Blood."

Bear does break those guidelines. I know in the case of Urine and Fish, there may be some debate, though. People have done both of those things to survive in real situations.

"b. Water sources:
(1) Surface water (streams, lakes, and springs).
(2) Precipitation (rain, snow, dew, sleet) (FigureVII-1).
(3) Subsurface (wells and cisterns).
(4) Ground water (when no surface water is available)"

Bear talks about all those sources in the series. The method of collecting dew by wrapping a cloth around your leg as you walk is in this manual and was recently demo’d by Bear in one of the new eps.

"(a) DO NOT eat ice or snow."

Bear has also given that warning.

"(b) Melt with fire.
(c) Melt with body heat."

He advised doing those instead.

Bear has also demo’d water collection from hollow trees/bamboo, vines and other things that are also taught in this manual.

"(1) If water cannot be purified, obtain water from a clear, cold, clean, and fast running source (if possible)."

Bear has talked about this. Ironically enough, he still got sick from it on one occasion I can recall.

That’s all I had done so far. I’ll continue when I get back, but thought I’d post this now. FWIW, I find that what Bear does and teaches, for the most part (emphasize that), is fairly consistent with this manual and what I assume his military survival training was.

Thats some good work matt, nice post.

wwwooowww....thats a lot of info. Very well done matt, seriously... nice post...

I’m glad to see you left out the irrelevant combat/evasion info Matt. Also, there are a few things I think Bear does relatively well. I think his descriptions of where and how to find water are, with some exceptions, pretty good. He seems to have amazingly consistent good luck finding it in some of the more unlikely scenarios though.

However, there are a few areas in your post where I think you were overly optimistic in your evaluation that Bear generally follows the guidelines in the manual.

Moving

Bear consistently, without fail, violates the fundamental principals for movement. He ALWAYS moves. Although he occasionally he pays lip survive to staying put, he has never once demonstrated it. This a CRTICAL decision in your survival. For that I give him zero points as a “teacher”.

Navigation

Although some of the techniques are valid, others are highly unreliable to point of being useless. Examples: The “canteen compass” in the Everglades. The “compass cactus” in Moab.

General Travel Considerations

You have already stated he doesn’t follow these guidelines and I agree. This is another CRITICAL factor in your survival. Again, he gets zero points as a teacher. A funny note about his preoccupation with his feet though. In the new Castaway episode he spent the entire time running around a coral island barefoot - a very ignorant thing to do. What the hell did do with his shoes? lmao!

River Travel

I want to point out here the requirements for considering travel by river are 1) there is no danger of hypothermia, 2) there are no rapids, and 3) you have adequate flotation. The ONLY time Bear has satisfied all these requirements is in Costa Rica. In that episode it MIGHT be considered reasonable - otherwise, zero points for Bear on this issue.

Ice and Snow Travel and Dry Climates

He gets “bagged” on his “advice” in these areas because he constantly violates the basic principals for justifying his actions Again, he may pay lip service to more reasonable methods, but he doesn’t emphasize them and has never demonstrated them. Again, zero points as a teacher.

And one final point: There is NEVER any justification for drinking urine period. There is no debate on the issue.

Looks like we are mostly in agreement on the facts, and just disagree on what we feel those fact represent. ..With one exception.

[quote]And one final point: There is NEVER any justification for drinking urine period. There is no debate on the issue.[/quote]

You can quibble about what would constitute a "debate" on the issue. It's irrelevant. The point is (and the facts are) that, 1. Drinking urine used to be taught as a survival technique. 2. People have actually done it to survive and lived. And 3. There has not been any scientific study (that I have been able to find) on the hydration/dehydration effects of drinking urine. Which means that the current belief that one should not drink urine is a best guess based on the properties of urine.

[quote]And one final point: There is NEVER any justification for drinking urine period. There is no debate on the issue.[/quote]

What if I like the taste, eh?
...
...
...
...
j/k

[quote]he still got sick from it on one occasion I can recall[/quote]

Oh, I think that was from those caterpillars he found in an african episode. He found a bunch of them and cooked them in a can (makeshift oven).

Afterwards he got the runs and stayed near a river for a bit. He then showed how to make a filter using sand/charcoal and mentioned the bit about ingesting the charcoal.

[quote]Then of course, be my guest...[/quote]

I'll share some with ya Rad.

[quote]but in official reports of the story the men report they survived by drinking rain water – no mention of urine is made.[/quote]


You must have had to look really hard to find an article that DID NOT mention it.

This is your reason for it not showing up in a few interviews including the one you provided.

Asked in a television interview if they ever drank their own urine, Rendon shied away from answering.

"My friend's ashamed to say it, but we did," said survivor Salvador Ordonez.

Here's the article zzbum seems to have retrieved his info from: http://www.banderasnews.com/0608/nb-homeagain.htm

Also something else that is related to this urine thread: 2 miners survived by drinking their urine and eating coal, then dug their own way out of a collapsed mine after being presumed dead :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6968589.stm?lsm

Yes zz, the various reports of this story are conflicting. In fact, there quite a few suspicious circumstances surrounding their entire ordeal. None of the reported details of their survival can be taken as absolute fact - which makes it irresponsible for Bear to offer up this story as support his urine drinking nonsense.

[quote]
Marshall Islands Police Commissioner George Lanwi voiced doubts Wednesday about the fishermens' tale of endurance.

"How could they survive that distance in a boat with no canopy?" he told AFP. "It's suspicious. They look much healthier than we'd expect."

Lanwi expressed skepticism about why the three men and their boat were not found earlier.

"There is a lot of ship traffic (across that area of the Pacific)," Lanwi said.
[/quote]

The case of the Chinese coal miners, the earthquake victims in China, and Araon Ralston’s story all are examples of people drinking urine in survival situations. But no evidence exists that it was at all beneficial to them. People have lived up to 18 days with no water at all. Surviving 5 days without water is not highly unusual.

Perhaps Bear’s next survival gimmick will be to eat coal.

[quote]Yes zz, the various reports of this story are conflicting[/quote]

right, right but you didn't offer that until you were called on it.

Initially you chose to twist the facts for no other reason than to take another cheap shot at Bear. Something you and your friends have a long long history of doing here. And I suspect is the reason for the dilemma you are in now.

You can debate "urine" all you want. But one thing you can't say is, you would never resort to drinking it.

The truth is when someone knows death is imminent, science and logic gets tossed, and they will try ANYTHING to help them survive even one more day. And its been well documented that drinking of ones own urine has been a part of many survival stories.

LOL, rad. How many accounts do you have? You are a weird kid (maybe OCD).

Besides, you should check out Bear's blog (read from start to end) and I'm sure you'll change your opinion because he's a great guy.

[quote]
Initially you chose to twist the facts for no other reason than to take another cheap shot at Bear. Something you and your friends have a long long history of doing here. And I suspect is the reason for the dilemma you are in now.
[/quote]

Not a cheap shot at all. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to support them. Bear’s “evidence” falls far short of that and I pointed that out.

Dilemma? What dilemma?


[quote]
You can debate "urine" all you want. But one thing you can't say is you would never resort to drinking it.
[/quote]

I would never resort to drinking urine. There, I said it. That was really quite easy in fact.

[quote]
The truth is when someone knows death is imminent, science and logic gets tossed, and they will try ANYTHING to help them survive even one more day.
[/quote]

No, that is the “truth” at all. They will resort to what they BELIEVE might help them - right or wrong. That is the real crime in spreading useless and potentially dangerous misinformation as factual survival advice.

[quote]
And its been well documented that drinking of ones own urine has been a part of many survival stories.
[/quote]

Irrelevant and beside the point. The fact that many people have claimed to drink urine in survival situations does not prove the assertion it is beneficial.

[quote]
LOL, rad. How many accounts do you have?
[/quote]

Why, only one active account at time of course. I would never dream of breaking the rules.

Wow, hey! Radbuster finally responded to one of my posts. You're one of the orginal hat... er, critics aren't you?

[quote]These are the “facts” on your urine issue:[/quote]

You're not telling me anything new, nor do your facts contradict mine.

[quote]The fact that drinking urine was once taught as a survival technique is irrelevant.[/quote]

Hardly. Though I've never been military, I am LE and I can tell you that in orgs like those training and tactics often change based on the best available knowledge, and just as often change back! Note how, currently, CPR is changing. Some people are already teaching that the rescue breaths are no longer necessary or beneficial and that all you need are the chest compressions.

Admittedly, the fact that something was once taught does not mean it is what should be done today. It does not, in this case, make Bear's advocacy of it legitimate. However, it is relevant for two reasons. First, it simply explains why Bear believes in it. Because it's what he was taught. Second, it means that there is some reason to believe it is effective or they wouldn't have been using it at the time.

[quote]Interestingly, Eddie’s Kimberly Australia story of three Mexican Fisherman that survived 9 months at sea by drinking turtle blood and their own urine seems to be largely an invention of the MvW script writers.[/quote]

lol You were busted pretty good on this one! I guess your claim here was "largely an invention of the Radbuster script writers."

[quote]Calling that merely a “best guess” is disingenuous to say the least. [/quote]

Not at all. Until they scientifically test for it, that's all it is.

[quote]I do believe I will take the advice of the Army Field Manual and informed medical experts[/quote]

Generally, I do as well. However, "medical experts" are still frequently wrong. Most of us don't have the require knowledge and expertise to be able to evaluate medical issues, so we trust those who do. However, I have caught my doctor/nurse telling me stuff that I knew was incorrect because I was informed about it. Particularly in the fields of health and nutrition! Just look at how often advice on what is healthy and what is not (and why) changes.

Mind you, I have never claimed that Bear is correct about drinking urine. I have only pointed out that there are reasons why he believes what he does and there is evidence to support him.

[quote]Bear’s “evidence” falls far short of that and I pointed that out. [/quote]

You know, we can all read, right? You clearly, as I quoted above, claimed the story was largely invented by Bear/MvW. You claimed that when apparently, you knew there were plenty of news stories that had the same "invention" in them, predating MvW, and that that's where Bear got the story from. The whole idea that, "well, Bear shouldn't have used a story that might possibly have not been true" is you simply trying to spin and backtrack after you basically got caught lying.

You would go a long way toward fulfilling your hope if you posted specific examples for discussion, rather than a vague blanket condemnation. Care to elaborate?

[quote]To hear about it on TV or the movies is one thing.[/quote]

....but to hear it from these people is something else..


Avalanche Danger

If you are caught in an avalanche you should immediately call out to others in hopes that they can see your course. It is very important to stay calm. Make an attempt to move away from your equipment and machine. Try to swim with the avalanche in an attempt to reach the side of it. Never swim against the avalanche. As you are coming to a stop, thrash your limbs about in hopes of loosening up the snow around you. Before coming to a stop, place your hands over your face to create an air pocket for breathing. If you are completely covered by snow the only way to gauge which way is up is to spit saliva and gravity will lead the way. Be sure to dig up.

http://www.snowut.com/safetytips.htm

Here's another story about surviving by drinking urine.

A man survived 146 hours (about 6 days) after China's May 12th earthquake by drinking his urine.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121130604542007575.html

Edit: Oh, I think this is the guy Bear was referring to when he mentioned someone cutting off their own arm after being pinned.

Turns out he also drank his urine to survive as well.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/04/cnn25.tan.ralston/index.html

Yes, yes unwary. These same three stories - the Chinese coal miners, the Chinese earthquake, and Aron Ralston have been cited over and over in support of Bear’s urine guzzling habit. They STILL don’t provide any credible evidence drinking urine is beneficial in a survival situation. Just the same as the coal miners eating coal “to survive” does not indicate that is very useful either.

So those guys being alive doesn't count as credible evidence?

Then I guess I'll never be able to prove the Earth is round to you too.

All those incidents prove is that drinking urine didn’t kill them before they were rescued. Now, if you think it is absolute proof it can save your life, then I suggest you try to convince the various branches of the U.S. Armed Forces to revise their survival manuals before thousands of our best and finest are killed from following their uninformed, incompetent advice.