We recently adopted a sweet German shepherd mix pup from a rescue, and she is quite small/thin for her age and bone structure (33 lbs at ~16 weeks). Our vet says she became malnourished when she was a stray during key weeks of puppyhood. We're trying to get her to gain weight with good kibble, a nutritional supplement, and regular walks and play, and she has a healthy apetite and a glossy coat and seems happy and energetic. But the biggest problem is that she is very clumsy, stumbling all over her own feet and often sprawling flat on her face when she jumps up or down a step. Her front legs buckle under her. The vet says her muscles need to develop more. I want to start doing training exercises with her, but I am concerned about whether her body can take it yet--especially the quick turns involved in the heeling exercises. Any thoughts on this? According to the Monks' books, she is at the age to begin basic training exercises, but I'm concerned about whether we need to focus on building up her weak muscles first. She already gets underfoot as it is because she lacks coordination. She's registered for a group obedience class that starts in another month. Should I wait with short training exercises, or start slowly?

You can start obedience training now. She is completely capable of learning sit, lay down and stay.

Also, training exercises should be short, between 5 and 10 minutes. Just do several training sessions throughout the day. Remember to keep them fun and entertaining, mix things up a bit. German shepherds are too smart for repitition, they get bored.

One last word, don't expect the clumseyness to go away until she is at least 2 years old. My german shepherd is a little over a year now and about 85 pounds and she STILL trips over her own feet, steps on her own tail, runs into things, bangs her head on the table, and falls up and down the stairs and there is nothing physically wrong with her bones or muscles, she's just a clutz.

Like most large breeds, shepherds mature very slowly. They will remain a puppy until they are about 2.

I'm also a bit doubtful about the quality of this book your talking about. Training exercises don't start at 4 months, they start the day you get the puppy! Rosie was doing training exercices since the day I got her at 9 weeks old. She knew all her basic obedience commands by 4 months old and how to walk on the leash. The reason I'm doubting this is because it's very oldschool for a book to suggest that formal training start at 4 months old. The world of dog training has advanced alot in many areas since then and there are better and more effecient ways of going about dog training.

Can you give me a bit of an overview of what training methods this book is giving you? How does it suggest you train the dog to heel? What does it say is the best way to stop nipping or jumping? What's the copyright date?

Sharp turns are NOT necessary to train your puppy to heel either, another suggestion that makes me think that the book isn't reliable (a double wammy if it says to use a choker chain!). This puppy can do alot regardless of her condition using gentle methods that work just as well.

The people here will be able to help you alot if you are willing to listen.

Also, regarding her condition, what kibble do you have her on? Is she on extra vitamins? A good idea is to have her swim. Swimming is great for physical therapy to help her build up some muscle. Simple daily walks will help too.

Sugarbird, she's referring to the Monks of New Skeet. You know them right? They have the show now, and yes they have been around for many years. Their training methods, from what you've posted, are probably not what you would approve of. I read their books and watched their videos ten years ago. They have progressed a lot, but from what I see, they do use chokes, halties, pinches. Not that I disapprove, just that I can see that it's not "all positive" training.

Ok, then yes, the methods ARE old school! lol. Thanks for clarifying.

The methods do work, but you can get alot further with the gentler, postive methods IMO.

The main reason I don't approve of those correctional collars and sharp turns or collar pops are because an inexperienced person isn't going to use them correctly. Even a large majority of professionals use them incorrectly. They were not originally created to inflict pain on the dog to get the dog to behave, but unfortunatly thats how they are used and thats how most people believe they are supposed to work.

I don't even use them myself because I don't know how to use them properly either! Even if I did, I still wouldn't touch them. I'm one of those sticklers for doing things right the first time who believe that training aids shouldn't be used as a subsitution for proper training.

Thanks for the feedback. I use only very gentle corrections with my pup, because she also came to us with a submissive urination habit, and she gets a lot of positive reinforcement (delivered in a low-key way, so she doesn't get too excited!). She has learned to sit and doesn't jump as often (mostly when she's excited and forgets not to), and she's pretty good on a leash in the park. Down stay will take a while because she is a bit high strung and just can't stay still yet, and I don't want to take her on city streets until she knows how to heel. The last time I trained a puppy I used a combination of the methods the Monks recommend in their "Art of Training a Puppy" book and a kindergarten puppy training class, but I had that dog from the age of 8 weeks and she was a very sturdy pup. This one is very lean and lanky, and as soon as the vet told me that she came to us malnourished, I started worrying about overly stressing her muscles and bones. I would welcome any tips you have on "positive methods" that provide alternatives to the "old school" methods of the Monks.

Yeah, be very careful with your corrections if she has submissive urination problems. Even the gentlest of corrections seem to have a negative effect on such sensitive dogs. Angie used to pee whenever somebody yelled, even if it wasn't at her at all because she came from an abusive home where they yelled and kicked/hit/threw things at her alot.

Personally, I find one of the best ways to stop pulling is with a combination of ignoring pulling, teaching the command "heel" and reinforcing walking nicely. Pulling is not a dominant behavior contrary to popular belief, it's actually reinforced. If the dog pulls because it wants to get to something and you follow, then you reinforced the pulling by allowing the dog to get where he wanted to go which in essence was the reward. However, if instead of following, you stop when the leash becomes taught and only continuing when the leash is slack, then the dog will learn very quickly that pulling won't get him anywhere, buta slack leash will. Simply stop dead in your tracks when the leash becomes pulled taught and wait until the dog calms itself and turns around and looks at you wondering whats going on. Once this happens, call the dog and guide or lure him back into the proper heel position while saying the cue and reward him. Begin walking slowly, praising him for keeping at your pace. If he starts to pull again, just stop, ask him again to stop and sit at the heel position, and repeat. If the dog is very focused on pulling, a really tasty treat or a favorite toy will help make you more interesting and help him to pay attention to you.

The other method is similar to the Monks', but doesn't involve sharp turns, just normal turns. Pretty much the same concept, but you just change direction, call the dog to you and praise him when he catches up and continue praising him when he's keeping pace. The point isn't to correct the dog for pulling but rather teach him to pay more attention.

Which one I decide to use usually depends on the dog and what his motives for pulling are. If the dog is something like a beagle and can't keep it's nose off the ground, then I use the turn method because obviously he needs to learn to pay attention to me and where I'm going and not the scent on the ground. But if the dog's motives are just to go, like a dog that loves walks, wants to approach that dog behind the fence, person down the road just wanting to go in general, I'll use the stopping method.

As for her muscles, like I said, just take it slow and gradual. Start with 5 minute walks then increase to 7 then 10 and keep gradually increasing the amount of time she must use her muscles this way they are able to develop and continue getting stronger.

If you are interested in a book, check out "The Power of Positive Training" by Pat Miller or "Outwitting Dogs", can't remember the author. The first one by Pat Miller is a really basic introduction to positive training, why it works better than trying to correct or punish and the potential negative effects that corrections and punishments can have on a dog and your bond with the dog. It also describes some of the more alternative positive methods you can use to get what you want from the dog. The second is a bit more in depth going into solving more serious behavior issues with postive reinforcement and it really explains the training concepts I live by. The more you get into positive training, the more you realize that you can literally do anything and solve anything with it....You just have to be smarter than the dog. With positive, the old phrase "there's more than one way to skin a cat" really comes into play. If one method doesn't work, there's always another.

Have you looked into clicker training?

Sugarbird, thank you so much for all these great suggestions. What is clicker training?

Clicker training is a positive training method involvoing operant conditioning.

The clicker itself is just a little toy that clicks. It's the training that goes with it that's whats important and gives the click meaning.

You begin by conditioning the dog by clicking your clicker and then immediatly rewarding the dog with food or a toy along with praise. The goal is to get the dog to realize that the click equals a treat. Most dogs will make that connection fairly quickly. You know you have it when you can allow the dog to shift it's attention to something other than yourself and you can click and he will immediatly look back at you expectantly waiting for his treat.

After you've accomplished that, then the fun begins. The click will develop more meaning as you train. You first ask the dog to perform a command he already knows, say, sit for example. Ask him to sit and then click the clicker the moment his rump touches the ground. Once you click, he gets his treat and praise. You click the dog for performing behaviors correctly.

The click becomes a form of praise to the dog, telling him in an instant that he has done what you wanted. It soon means "yes, you did it correctly". This really helps to bridge the human-dog communication gap because the click allows you to communicate to the dog EXACTLY what you want from him. Regular praise will also do this with the same result, but you can click that clicker faster than you can say "good dog", which is more precise.

In fact, it's so precise, that your timing must be perfect. Going back to sit, if you click too soon, you will teach your dog to squat. Click to late and goodness knows what he's looking at or about to do. That's how powerful clicker training is. It will enable you to teach your dog really funny things on command like sticking his tongue out, sneezing, yawning and other tricks that you otherwise wouldn't be able to accomplish very well.

The clicker also allows for a smarter dog. While regular training often requires alot of involvement from you (luring, physical placement etc), clicker training requires the dog to figure out what you want by himself becaue he will be working for the click. Instead of teaching the command sit the normal way, you can "capture" the behavior by clicking every time the dog sits on it's own accord. Once the dog figures out what's going on, he'll start testing behaviors to see what gets him that click. Once he realizes that it's sitting that gets the click, he'll do it more often and more predictable. Thats when you can add the command. Of course you can still lure though, thats just an example. Capturing like that though is how I taught a dog to scratch himself on command once. I just clicked and rewarded when he started scratching an itch and he figured out that it was that behavior that was getting him the reward.

Clicker training also works for dogs who are very food motivated or overly food motivated. Many people take away treats from their training agenda because the dog is too focused on the treat to perform and this is a shame because food is a very powerful motivator. But with clicker training, the dog isn't working directly for the treat, but rather the click. So he isn't focused on the reward itself, he's focused on getting the click because it's the click that gets him the food.

My best analogy yet....here we go. If I ask you why you go to work, you answer to get money. But why? That paper and metal stuff does you no good. Your answer would be because you can buy stuff with it, you can buy what you want. The money is like the click to the dog. The click initally means nothing and does nothing for the dog. But because you've conditioned him, the click becomes like a paycheck. He works for the click to get the treat and reward that comes after just like you work for that paycheck so you can buy the stuff you really want.

That is pretty much clicker training in a nu*tshell. I can go on, but I want to keep it as simple as possible. Feel free to ask questions if something doesn't make sense or you don't get something. Hopefully I didn't leave anything out lol.