Wow.. the guy who has no check list for IT /CABLE checking and doesn't know he is looking at things backwards on the monitor.. now has big govornment funds and now has donned the Red Cardinal Robes of the relgion of well funded science with the same pius attidude of an religion gone bad.
I get that he is doing serious work. but he no need to so freeking rude and arrogant..
If you "dare mention" dogs in my meeting you are gone.. we Scientist don't care about dogs..
I thought Josh's ego caused him to make some bad calls and lost him data.. Now is has 10 DOWS to send to the wrong storm..
Sorry not a fan because of the attitude.. imagine what that kind of funding could do in the hands of a REAL LEADER who motivates people to work as a team.. vs a Dictator who enforces his power.
Josh may have knowledge.. but Vortex two needs a REAL leader not a angery professor.
I really disagree with your points. I think that scientists generally are pretty puritanical about what they do. Agendas like entertainment really have no place in the vigorous pursuit of scientific truth. Josh warned both Reed and Sean about how to behave and about what was and was not acceptable. He knew ahead of time that Sean tended to be a class clown, and Josh was proven right. Mentioning the dog had no damned place in a meeting about the logistics of the research, especially when Sean mentioned it with a juvenile smirk on his face that is seen every day by school teachers. Those guys in V2 are serious about their work, and they don't tolerate stuff like that very well. You could tell that Sean said that because he was offended by Josh saying that they weren't officially affiliated with V2. Because of that, Sean said that people thought they were freaks or a joke. Face it, the "need" to make an IMAX film is utterly incompatible wsith scientific research, as is Reed's making of tornado videos. Science must be methodical, deliberate, slow, and careful...none of which are qualities Sean has in abundance. Josh knows that, and called Sean on his stupid stunt. That showed a lot of leadership to me. He won't compromise the efforts of so many people for the antics of one renegade narcissist.
I agree with fogfire completely I’m currently in school for business administration and if I have learned one thing about being a leader Josh is everything but a good leader. He nearly ran his smaller team into a tornado last year now he has an even bigger team to control. Leaders inspire people show humility but are still respected. You can't command respect you have to earn it no matter who you are. His lack of charisma and his ego will be his down fall. Scientists never make good leaders their personalities are not right for the position look at any study on personality types he might be a great paper work leader but not a leader. He is so into his V2 project he is pushing the other chasers away when in the end those extreme chasers will obtain data he can never hope to get without them. His record of deploying probes into tornadoes is horrible what’s better than a probe with wheels that can adjust to a tornado’s path. I feel that his ego has grown way too much and this project will fall apart under his command. I’m sure he isn’t the one who got Washington to approve the money for this but he will be the one who loses it for them. Hopefully know one high up in Washington watches this cause they are going to wonder why they gave all that money to this program when the leader exhibits such poor qualities.
I didn't defend Josh as a leader. I said that he is focused on his work and nothing is going to compromise that mission. (That does have leadership qualities though, you know, the whole conviction about your purpose thing). I just didn't think that the argument could be made that Josh has elevated himself to some pugnatious totalitarian level. He has a lot of passion about what he does, which comes out when he talks to the cameras.
FitzNS just because you study business doesn't mean you have the market cornered on the topic of leadership. Leadership models in the business discipline have one common theme as its goal: to make more money. "We want you to be a better leader so that we make more money." No matter what you add to that statement, you will always say at the end "to make money." Science is different, and they should be judged on their own criteria. I also have studied leadership in great detail at a little place called The Naval Academy, so be careful about the philosophical foundation upon which you make critical statements about someones leadership. Not all leaders fit into your neat and trite word-categories. Some of the greatest leaders ever were a long ways away from humble. Leadership cannot be fit into those nice and neat categories typically in the business academic regimines.
And there was no hypocrisy by Josh getting angry over the dog thing. Josh was angry that Sean introduced something that was at least unrelated to the research being done and at most an agregious attempt at Sean being the "class clown" Josh had prophetically spoken of.
I don't particularly care about either one of them. I am just stating the fact as I see them, and, I believe, very accurately.
If you want people to follow your lead you have to win them over. Josh is in a position where he needs to win the public opinion of him and his research. His lack of ability to do that could very easily lose the program it’s funding. He might be a great scientist but his ego is going to create problems and possibly hurt people. I agree the military builds leadership most defiantly but in the case of the military the people under you have no choice. In Josh's situation the people there have a choice they can leave his team, he can alienate people who could possibly be valuable allies. Sean is odd and quirky that’s nothing new but his drive and passion combined with his vehicle could very easily contribute to the study of tornadoes greatly. Reed is the same way his new radar could be added to Josh’s data to create a more rounded picture. Josh is out to make his program look like it’s the best and doesn't need any help from anyone. He is in a position were public opinion matters to the success of his program. People are not going to support a 12 million dollar program lead by a man like that in an economy like this he is showing us that our money is being wasted. He could be a great scientific leader but he needs to be kept from the public eye if his demeanor is going to be so poor. The dog comment was misplaced but to me that meeting in no way looked all too formal or that important. If it was a big meeting and he is in control of 12 million dollars why would he show up dressed that way look at him that shirt’s so old you can see through it. That’s not the appropriate light for the public to see this program in. My emphasis is in marketing we study people and how they react to what they see and that isn’t going to make this outfit look professional. I don’t disagree with the points you have made I respect what you have to say I’m just shining a different light on it. Please don’t feel that I’m trying to disrespect you in any way.
The first principle of military leadership is "Be technically and tactically proficient." Josh is neither. He spent the entire last season consistantly making the wrong decisions. Then he coverd his constant erors by becoming petulant and arrogant. Any one who knew of his work would never have given him grant money. This year he will fail again just more spectacularly. Fun to watch.
Also note I have an Associates of Applied Science in Welding I have walked two very different aspects of life I'm not some prep who rode a trust fund to college. I also have studied geology and metallurgy throughout my time in school and understand how scientists study.
Originally posted by jkrice2: The first principle of military leadership is "Be technically and tactically proficient." Josh is neither. He spent the entire last season consistantly making the wrong decisions. Then he coverd his constant erors by becoming petulant and arrogant. Any one who knew of his work would never have given him grant money. This year he will fail again just more spectacularly. Fun to watch.
Please note that he was not deffending Josh as a leader he was just offering a different type of leadership style than the one I presented from a business stand point.
Originally posted by fogfire: Wow.. the guy who has no check list for IT /CABLE checking and doesn't know he is looking at things backwards on the monitor.. now has big govornment funds and now has donned the Red Cardinal Robes of the relgion of well funded science with the same pius attidude of an religion gone bad.
I get that he is doing serious work. but he no need to so freeking rude and arrogant..
If you "dare mention" dogs in my meeting you are gone.. we Scientist don't care about dogs..
I thought Josh's ego caused him to make some bad calls and lost him data.. Now is has 10 DOWS to send to the wrong storm..
Sorry not a fan because of the attitude.. imagine what that kind of funding could do in the hands of a REAL LEADER who motivates people to work as a team.. vs a Dictator who enforces his power.
Josh may have knowledge.. but Vortex two needs a REAL leader not a angery professor.
It was apparent on TV the tension of the two, Josh and Sean. Personally, I don't watch to see Josh. I am watching in hopes that Sean will get his shot. That is the original focus of the show and from what I have seen this season stays true to form. I hope to see less of Josh this year...he is a downer!
By the way...threatening to disassociate a member from the community is hostile. Science is like any other community we all keep our secrets. If we didn't there wouldn't be so much money in corporate spying. Josh threatened both Reed and Sean....that IS NOT A SIGN of any type of leader it IS THE SIGN of a Bully!
I will certainly admit that Josh looked rather arrogant in episode 3. However, at least some of his comments were potentially made when he thought he was off camera. You know where his microphone is on, but the camera is across the parking lot zoomed in on him recording while he's having a private conversation with someone else. It's also unclear if some of his remarks that were shown were direct answers to a question he was asked by the cameraman or someone else on the Discovery crew. They just don't show the question being asked and it looks like Josh is going off on a rant ripping another chaser while talking to the camera.
Let's also not forget there's very likely a pile of footage that didn't make the show that shows Josh to be the same guy as last year. Discovery has simply decided to show him in a different light to get the viewers all worked up as they crank up the MTV reality factor on the show. The worst part is we're all rewarding them for it by giving them the extra attention that they're after.
Let's face it. Stormchasers is no longer a show about storms and chasing. If it was Episode 3 would have never been broadcast. It's a show about the interpersonal drama between the chasers that uses the chase and the storms as the inciting element for the drama between the characters.
I think of they edit the episode makes a HUGE difference on how a person is portrayed. Last night, Josh certainly did look like an arrogant a**hole. But who knows what actually went on that they didn't show. I thought it was out of line for Sean to interrupt the meeting like he did. I also agree Josh most likely didn't know he was being filmed a couple of times and said things he normally wouldn't have.
Originally posted by ttat: If Josh were really serious about the science and saving lives, he wouldn't be on the show. He just wants everyone to know his the big dog.
Pretty sure it was originally Sean's show, not Josh's. Sean needs the money to continue his quest for his "shot".
I think everyone has a point here in that we have a combination of different goals for the chasers along with discovery doing some editing work to make the show more entertaining. The way it is edited does make Josh look like a real jerk and looking at the way it was presented I think Sean did the right thing by leaving him behind. It is apparent that Josh doesn’t have the time for Sean this year, and while Sean comes off a little immature Josh should cut the guy some slack considering how long they have worked together.
I’m not a Reed fan, but Josh threatening Reed like that is just wrong again if we are getting the whole picture from Discovery. Josh doesn’t own these tornadoes Reed has every right to go after them as well, but I do think Reed should try to work with Josh and not ruin his data.
I’m not a Reed fan, but Josh threatening Reed like that is just wrong again if we are getting the whole picture from Discovery. Josh doesn’t own these tornadoes Reed has every right to go after them as well, but I do think Reed should try to work with Josh and not ruin his data.
I found that interesting as well. Like you said, it is hard to tell if we saw the whole thing. Sounded to me, like both were acting like *sses and didn't want to help each other out. How hard is it to make sure your radar's are not on the same frequency??(i know RADAR is complicated, just meaning from a team aspect)
I also am getting the vibe that Reed's team is kinda an outcast of the chasing world, doing it more for the video, money, and website than scientific data. The RADAR and probes might change this a little bit.
That's the problem with television- you never get the whole picture, you are only allowed to see what someone else WANTS you to view! For all we know, Dr. Wurman could be the nicest guy in the world & was deliberately portrayed as a horse's patoot thanks to the magic of clever editing. (The same applies to all the other characters portrayed on the show, btw.)
Anyway, Dr. Wurman wasn't (and isn't) the entire "big wheel" running the VORTEX 2 program: VORTEX 2
I took a Ph.D. in chemistry a long time ago and in the course of study and reseach I atended seminars/classes given by three people who later won Noble Prizes. Through my research director I also had knowledge of a fourth plus contact with, or knowledge of, quite a few other "very big names." I found that they were like most people - some pleasant and some quite obnoxious - but all were very single minded about their work and nothing and no one would stand in their way. Almost all of them had big egos, though some managed to hide that fact publicly while a few didn't even try to do so. I also found that at some prestigious universities jealousies and distrust ran so high on staff that no graduate student would discuss his/her work for fear someone would steal it. In this series we see only what the editors choose to show us and need to factor that in. Editors love conflict and probably choose footage accordingly. That said what I see gives me a picture of Professor Wurman which I find to be unpleasant, though his actions are somewhat understandable given his orientation and goals. I do not find him to be a likeable, or sympathetic character. What I do see is typical of many academics: he seems to be very concerned about his reputation, probably as much so as being concerned about the actual science; something typical in all academic science environments in my experience. That, I think, is one reason he was very cautious in guiding Sean Casey in past seasons. It would hardly do to get the guy killed, or injured. Also, he MUST make his new venture a success so he HAD TO make certain Timmer's work did not interfere with his radar. All that said, the footage shown appears to present him as looking down on non-scientists, or on scientists who do not hold his values and I find that unpalatable. His somewhat rude dismissal of Casey after years of association, which I suspect was at least of monetary benefit to him, was not at all done in a friendly manner and I found it to be offensive. Also, the apparent use of threats to Timmer is not tolerable to me, though his concerns were 100% legitimate. I do not have proof of this, but I suspect that he may be excellent in development - which his reputation would indicate - but maybe not so good in field work and instrument deployment, perhaps even being excessively cautious, which is what is suggested by the content of this program over the past years. Lastly, after my academic career and 34 years in industry I would note that there are always scientists who are great at science, but poor at management and leadership, but there also are those who are excellent at both.
Josh has a ton on his plate. Look up http://www.vortex2.org/home/ and tell me they are not at least a little justified in their importance to the community at large. And for anyone that thinks 12 million is too much for a two year project this big, tell me how much per day is spent on trying to keep the ailing NOAA satellites in the sky? 12 million sounds cheap.
Originally posted by wxchaser28: It's great that so many of you know so much about Josh and his abilities as a team leader and scientist based on a heavily edited 45 minute show. You know, because we all know what you see on TV is what you get
If Josh was lacking in leadership as much as you think, do you really think that NOAA would put him in a leadership position for a $12 million research mission?
You guys do realize that Josh has advanced the field of meteorology by his research? He created the first ever Doppler on Wheels, he has gotten data sets that opened up the doors to new theories about tornadogenesis.
But yeah, glad you know oh so much about Josh based on what you see on a TV show.
I think there are a few things we need to keep in mind here: 1. Editing, editing, editing. A lot of liberties are taken in this arena. 2. We are dealing with 3 Type A males here: Josh, Sean and Reed. If they weren't Alpha males, they wouldn't be out there doing what they're doing. and 3. Josh, Sean and Reed are all out there for different reasons. Josh is strictly out there for the science, Sean wants that "one shot" and Reed is out there for the thrill of it all and to keep his business running.
With all that in mind, these guys were never destined to be "best friends". Personally, I watch the show to see Josh and he scientific interpretation of the storms. My DH on the other hand watches it to see Reed get close to the storms. Everyone has their own reasons for watching the show.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: mod_ivy,
Originally posted by wxchaser28: It's great that so many of you know so much about Josh and his abilities as a team leader and scientist based on a heavily edited 45 minute show. You know, because we all know what you see on TV is what you get
If Josh was lacking in leadership as much as you think, do you really think that NOAA would put him in a leadership position for a $12 million research mission?
You guys do realize that Josh has advanced the field of meteorology by his research? He created the first ever Doppler on Wheels, he has gotten data sets that opened up the doors to new theories about tornadogenesis.
But yeah, glad you know oh so much about Josh based on what you see on a TV show.
We can’t judge who he is but what we can all see is he is a poor leader that shouldn't be the public face of the operation. If he were smart he'd use the competition between Reed and Sean to his advantage not dismiss them. The two of them can obtain data that he will never get from his DOW trucks. He should have split them up pared with different sets of DOW trucks on different storm and exploited their competiveness to drive them closer and closer to tornados. All he needed to do was create a air of respect between the three of them so they would respect him enough to work with him instead he did the opposite by completely disrespecting both of them. If he truly wishes to fully understand tornadoes he is going to have to be a leader that brings people together not drives them apart. Even though they all have different goals the vehicles Sean and Reed drive could be utilized by Josh to help create a larger more diverse data set of different tornados.
you guys looked up V2 at all? Josh isn't the main guy. Sean is his responsibility because of thier history. If Sean gets hurt, even if Josh isn't with him, everyone is going to blame Josh because of the association. yes, the dog thing was funny, and most of the people there enjoyed a chuckle, but maybe Josh was stressed because it made him look bad. On top of that, maybe Josh wasn't threatening to kick him out, but obviously Josh is the only guy who would work with Sean and his peers don't take too kindly to a little bit of fun. You think after 10 years Josh would dissassociate from Saun because of a little fun?
It is funny that people automatically judge people based upon what they see on TV. Like others have said, editing film for the episode shows people in a certain light. Sean, Reed and Josh have completely different goals when it comes to storms. If you knew the history and personalities back behind all the characters on this show, you would understand why they act the way they do. I have watched all the episodes and have researched what these people do.
Josh's history has been to research and develop DOW (Doppler on wheels) radar technology. He isn't the type of guy who is interested in photographs or film of tornadoes. He wants computer data.
Reed and his team are a group of seasoned storm chasers that take photographs and film tornadoes. They sell the pictures and film to news organizations. They also collect hail stones and sell them to Boeing for research purposes. They are not scientists like Josh and his team.
Sean is a film maker that only cares about getting footage of tornadoes so he can make money off the film.
So you can see 3 very different goals for each of the three main personalities of this show.
Sean making his little comment during Josh's meeting is on par for his personality especially in light of being told they weren't officially part of the project which is quite understandable. I'm sure the government grants didn't even consider the TIV to be part of the project since they don't need to drive a vehicle into a tornado to get the data they need. I'm sure it's really expensive to drive a vehicle of that size and weight back and forth across the country. If anything, Sean and Reed are a better match and should work together.
Josh's handling of Sean was a classic case of poor leadership. If he didn't want to have Sean there he should have said so before he arrived. Instead he decided to wait until he shows up to make that known and known in rather a poor way. I was really surprised by how he reacted. Yeah Sean shouldn't have mentioned the dog but that's no reason to act like that. I think his reaction reflects pretty poorly on his ability to deal with people and lead a group.
I almost wonder if Josh didn't want Sean around because Sean was a reminder of the poor job he had done in the previous years of guiding him into a tornado. I mean here is Reed Timmer who isn't exactly Mr Science, who doesn't have half the equipment or training and he's able to get up to the tornadoes where as Josh couldn't after several years of trying. I can understand Josh not wanting that reminder of his failure hanging around for others to see.
Somebody Close to Josh needs to get a pry bar put it between his shoulders and bottom and tug. I never watct the show to see him or his team. The only reason the show is popular is a couple of crazy guys in a Stealth Fighter on wheels are trying to drive into a tornado. To date Josh has been totally unsucessful in guiding them into one.
Sean Casey needs to remind Josh to dance with the one that brung ya!
There is no questioning Josh's academic qualifications and what he has contributed greatly to the study of severe weather. However there is a difference between academic research in a lab and out in the field.
It's pretty clear that Josh has trouble in the field and difficulties in dealing with people when he is in a leadership position. I think part of his reaction to Sean was as much as anything the man is feeling out of his element in the field. He felt he needed to try and show he was in control and overreacted. Good leaders don't react the way Josh did.
Reed is successful because it's just him on the road. Josh has a team of about 20 following him. He had to position the entire team to put probes in the path of the tornado along with getting Sean into position. So Josh has quite a bit more leadership skills than any of the other team members.
first things first...what most people don't know is that many forms of radar are illegal to use when driving and that these radars interfere with the Dows. Josh knew this .
Reed's team is the outcast....no one agrees with what he does. He's been criticized from basically everyone ranging from Werman to Doswell to Roger Edwards. Reed is adding the science in an effort to make people shut up and hide from the public what he's really about. Reed is the wolf, the probe and radar are the sheep's clothing.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: mod_ivy,
It is amusing how clueless people are about Vortex2, and the modern history of tornado research and Dr. Wurman's contributions in that field, or the story of his background starting from his days at MIT to present.
Also, people do not seem to understand the attitude of many people (other than Josh) on the Vortex2 project towards amateur storm chasers.
From the April 20, 2009 Washington Post article about Vortex2:
""Risky though it appears, members of the project note that their crews have never logged a death or severe injury. But they say amateur tornado-chasers who follow scientists around with video cameras are endangering themselves and others. Not only do these adrenalin junkies put themselves in harm’s way, the scientists say, they often speed and park their cars in the middle of the road, endangering other motorists and distracting highway patrol officers.""
Everyone seems to have forgotten the scene in the parking lot when Josh tells Sean he can tag along as long as Sean does not become a "scallywag." And then what does Sean do? Lost Puppy! LOL! The look on the face of the guy next to Josh on the podium after Sean's puppy speach was priceless! ("Is this bring your kids to meeting day?")
The Bottom line is that the only friend anyone like Reed or Sean has on the Vortex2 team is Josh -the others would just as soon see most of them gone, they consider them a distraction and potential hinderance.
So why does Josh tollerate and even help Sean? Perhaps the answer to that might be found in Josh's earlier history... just sayin. Google is your friend.
Sean needs Josh, Josh does not need Sean. This Discovery Channel series is a PR tool, and don't kid youself, Wurman knows that.
Amen mho1. Josh is established and his career doesn't need the approval of those who accuse him of being arrogant. In meteorological circles, he is indeed a god. Sean is angry that he too cannot ascend Olympus.
Originally posted by fogfire: Wow.. the guy who has no check list for IT /CABLE checking and doesn't know he is looking at things backwards on the monitor.. now has big govornment funds and now has donned the Red Cardinal Robes of the relgion of well funded science with the same pius attidude of an religion gone bad.
I get that he is doing serious work. but he no need to so freeking rude and arrogant..
If you "dare mention" dogs in my meeting you are gone.. we Scientist don't care about dogs..
I thought Josh's ego caused him to make some bad calls and lost him data.. Now is has 10 DOWS to send to the wrong storm..
Sorry not a fan because of the attitude.. imagine what that kind of funding could do in the hands of a REAL LEADER who motivates people to work as a team.. vs a Dictator who enforces his power.
Josh may have knowledge.. but Vortex two needs a REAL leader not a angery professor.
_________________________________________________
I agree. What genius put Josh in charge of all these people? He misses everything. I had to laugh at the way he was bragging to his girl lackey about what he said to sean. Like he was some tough guy. Then he threatens Reed with getting him banned from chasing if he doesn't tell him his frequency. All hail Josh! HAHAHAH
No question Wurman has done good for weather science, tornado tracking, safety, etc. He just doesn't make for interesting TV. Again, he doesn't own the tornados.
Originally posted by wxchaser28: He misses everything? Really? You came to this conclusion how?
You do realize that because of Josh and his research, all of his intercepts and data sets, that we know more about tornadoes today than we did 20 years ago. Because of Josh and his creation of Doppler on Wheels and his research, doors have opened to new theories about how tornadoes develop.
He hardly misses everything, if you believe this because of a stupid TV show than you are the biggest frickin' idiot on earth and you need to be smacked upside the head. Stop being stupid and acting like you know all there is to know about what goes on just because you watch Storm Chasers.
Originally posted by wxchaser28: Then again, most scientists don't make for interesting TV. However, I'm tired of people saying Josh misses everything because of the way a TV show is put together. No he doesn't.
In reality, Josh has seen more tornadoes during his time storm chasing than most hobbyist storm chasers will ever see. Josh is a great chaser, his research has done a lot for the science community. There are new theories about tornadogenesis because of the research Josh has done.
People like M.T.B are clueless, they are ignorant. They see crap on TV and immediately think they are an expert, that they know it all. People like M.T.B doesn't seem to realize that what you see on TV is heavily edited, it gets manipulated by the editors. It's not reality, it is fabricated by the way it is edited together.
A lot of you people have seen very little of Dr. Josh and are making judgments based on an entertainment show.
As far as the people who say "He keeps missing with the TIV" If you notice the intercepts painted on the front of TIV 1, I'd beg to differ.... It just makes for better TV that way.
More importantly this part: "Some private chase teams and tours have marine radars mounted on their vehicles; however, these are for promotional purposes and have no use in research. Marine radar signals actually tend to interfere with research units like the DOWs."
This was the big issue about the radar, they are very sensitive, and just shooting things up in the air randomly really screws with their accuracy. I'm sure the part of the telephone conversation everyone didn't hear would explain why the hostility. They only played the interesting part.
Creative cutting makes for good TV. Boring Scientists are made interesting that way. Where would Batman be with out the Joker? Someone has to be the Villain.
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