I really think that they should just let Sean decide were to go, because Josh doesn't seem to know anything about locating a storm. Every time Sean has a gut feeling about where they should go to find a tornado Josh ignores it and they end up totally missing the tornado's. Usually the tornado hit exactly where they were in the first place before Josh gets a big head and decides to move every one to a new location! I think that they should get rid of Josh and let Sean make the decisions!! And I hope Josh reads this, because he needs to start being a team player !
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People need to stop whining. This is a very unpredictable science. If anyone could always predict where a storm was, then they would not need to study tornadoes at all.
Not whining, but watching the second season replay tonight and I do find it ironic how Reed was seemingly better able to get into a storm than Josh.
Reed is a complete beat-down to me but with nothing more than a couple of vehicles and a radar link he seemed to get more accomplished than Josh and the others. I'm looking at it from an analytical and cost standpoint here but if I had to pay one or the other to intercept, get data, and record a tornado on film.........Reed's outfit might seem the most cost-effective one.
Well, I agree that sometimes Josh seems immature but at other times I can see where he's coming from. And since Josh is now working with the Vortex project makes his problems with Storm Chasers, moot. I will say this, though....since he is head of the project and responsible for the safety of the members, I can understand his caution, most of the time.
Reed hasn't really been gathering on data on storms....mostly just capturing videos that he sells. This year his operation looks more scientific than in the past.
We watched some of the marathon this past weekend. They really portrayed Josh as being an idiot. While our local meteorologists can't even predict a thunderstorm or a sunny day with any accuracy, I am sure predicting where a tornado will develop is somewhat more difficult. I don't think Josh is that stupid. I personally feel that he just didn't want to be anywhere near where a tornado would develop. Ever notice when they are close to one, his computer crashes? After the threat of the tornado is over, he gets it working again and the main computer problem was just the result of a loose cable. You'd think he'd learn to check that more often when the computer dies.
I'm sure that Josh is very talented within the narrow skill set that he is trained in. However, being a skilled weather researcher does not automatically make one a skilled weather FORECASTER. IMHO Josh needs to have a real forecaster on the team, with the power to direct the caravan to the best site. Josh needs to delegate responsibility in a big way.
You have to take into account that Josh's team is gigantic and you have to maneuver everyone to one particular spot. You have to get the pod teams to their location and get the TIV setup in the right spot as well. The reason why Reed gets more storms is because he has maybe 2 vehicles as part of his project. They normally drive like bats too ignoring speed limits.
Josh's team however probably doesn't get the chance to do that with how big their team is. Ever noticed how slow traffic is on the interstate in rush hour? Ya that would be Josh's team. Maybe they need to spread their teams out a bit on multiple storms if they can get more DOWs on the road.
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well alot of times Josh is not the one that decides where to go. i can recall an episode where he said "just so everyone knows, the person to hate is Justin" and they even say Justin is the lead forecaster for Josh... so it's not all Josh it's just bad luck.
Being new to this site, I am always somewhat hesitant to post anything, but you people are killing me over Dr. Josh. The man knows his stuff, and as some of you pointed out, it's not an exact science. That could be why they are out doing all this, just a thought. I currently reside in eastern Oklahoma, moved here 5 years ago from southern Kentucky, we had more tornadoes back home than we usually do in the whole state of Oklahoma. Somebody want to explain that to me? In the past few years the Mid-South and lower tier of southern states had more tornadoes than the "Alley." Is the "Alley" moving east? That is just another question that needs to be researched by the group. I know it's outside their travel boundaries, but a team permanently deployed to the southern states might turn out to be helpful some day. I've lived thru some really nasty storms in the south, have yet to be in or see anything in Oklahoma. IMHO the "Alley" is moving on us, and the answers why are endless. I think we need to step up the research program and move it, wish I could fund it, would be the best money I ever spent.
We should not forget that the last two years have not produced the constant stream of tornadoes that prior years have. No one, not Sean, Wurman, Timmer or anyone else has had a perfect record with fewer opportunities. Also, with a $500,000 dish and an equal amount of equipment following him around, not to mention real people with real lives, the leader (and that is clearly established as Josh Wurman) can't just react impulsively.
If I can make a wish for season 3 (or 4): Have Josh return after his work with Vortex (or during it); have Sean gain more autonomy for the TIV but with active support from the scientists; have Reed tone it down and show us what he did to earn the place of PhD candidate (they don't hand that stuff out for pretty pictures and screaming - he has to have something on the ball); and have more attention on the new fellow who seems to be very good - with all the yelling and cut editing I didn't get his name.
That is true, but Reed does have a better record. Dr. Wurman and his DOW are the dommand center and he does deside where to go and mostly wrong. He should learn his equipemnt better and stick with just that equipment and let someone else with better command authority and delegation experience be the team leader. So far the endowment/grant money he has used had been a total waste so far.
8409: Maybe according to the show, I can see your viewpoint. However, Dr. Wurman does have the distinct honor of having used the DOW to record the highest tornadic winds ever during the May 3, 1999 tornado that tore through Moore, OK and parts of the Oklahoma City suburbs. This is just a show, after all, that only encompasses 35 minutes for 8 episodes, and not what Dr. Wurman focuses on during the times he is not on camera for Discovery being edited.
He totally messed up on Greensburg. He was laughing at all the chasers heading south to Greensburg while he went hours north. Rewatch season 1.
To see the documentation on so many of his other misses and his habit of being in the opposite direction of any storm, rewatch season 2.
Wouldn't data on tornadoes be even more useful if he actually got on the tornadoes to get some data? Or is just riding around in a big truck reading a radar about other storms far away from him enough to give him a pass?
I certainly will re-watch Season 1 and Season 2. Again, these are only 5 1/2 hours each in total. If you believe Josh and his team only works and gathers data for 5 1/2 hours out of the entire year, then you'd be right. If you stop and think that maybe he works more than that, then you need to research what data he has gathered outside of the camera lens that is designed for drama and hype, and then make a judgement call. For at least ROTATE 2003, there were 11 tornado intercepts with data collected, 2 dual-DOW intercepts with data collected and 1 Rapid DOW (Phased Array Radar) with data collected. Throughout Season 1, there were 25 tornado intercepts with data collected, 4 of which included the TIV. Oops, guess they didn't show that many on Discovery.
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Originally posted by Whaling_Sux: Nothing since 1999,
Rotate Log's reports Twenty incidents last year <2008>. Nineteen intercepts with "DOW" data and three with both "DOW & TIV" data. I think your understanding of facts are a bit misleading. I posted the whole log in another thread but it got trapped by the filters. Source <http://www.cswr.org/projects/rotate/rotate2008.php>
I haven't cared enough about Wurman to dig up data about him. I post based on what I see on the StormChasers. If he has had more intercepts then presented then he should rethink his associations because the editing is making him out to be a whiny, arrogant, preachy, hypocritical 'scientist' who doesn't know how to check basic pc issues or find a tornado even with millions of dollars of equipment. The editing basically presents him as a pontificating bumbler with a gift for being in the opposite direction from where he should be. Now that's entertainment.
Just a little hypercritical there aren't you. You know nothing but what you've seen and don't have the time to look at his accomplishments before resorting to petty name calling.
The reality is Josh has been chasing longer, designed and hold patents on most of the DOW radar equipment utilized today. He has seen more storms and intercepts <verifiable> than both Sean and Timmer put together.
IMO, Discovery has changed the dynamics of the show. The question is, can the damage be repaired. I probably won't watch another season without Josh back at the helm in a leadership role. It's his baby and has been for over a decade now.
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Originally posted by zaphrella: I haven't cared enough about Wurman to dig up data about him. I post based on what I see on the StormChasers. If he has had more intercepts then presented then he should rethink his associations because the editing is making him out to be a whiny, arrogant, preachy, hypocritical 'scientist' who doesn't know how to check basic pc issues or find a tornado even with millions of dollars of equipment. The editing basically presents him as a pontificating bumbler with a gift for being in the opposite direction from where he should be. Now that's entertainment.
Originally posted by Whaling_Sux:I probably won't watch another season without Josh back at the helm in a leadership role. It's his baby and has been for over a decade now.
You didn't provide Timmer's statistics so we don't know how many or how many more or less tornados he's caught than Wurman during the same timeframe.
As far as "his baby and has been for over a decade"... are you referring to the Dow or to Stormchasers. I am not watching the Dow not chase or find tornadoes. I am watching Storm Chasers. I was not aware that it has been on for more than 2, now 3 seasons or that Wurman was the 'mastermind' behind that, too.
I watch the show to see storms, storm structure, tornadoes, too but I can enjoy the show with just storms and clouds in general. The voice over narration is helpful in elaborating on what one of the chasers might have commented.
Since Reed has only been in the business of capturing video, and not really in the science of the storms, its safe to say his collection of tornado data is extremely limited versus Josh. Amazing that one would judge someone's work based on a TV show, and not be willing to open a new tab while posting to Discovery and see Josh's intercepts. The links have even been provided, so clicking on them is even easier. Researching a topic before posting will give more credibility to opinions.
Amazing that one would judge someone's work based on a TV show, and not be willing to open a new tab while posting to Discovery and see Josh's intercepts. The links have even been provided, so clicking on them is even easier. Researching a topic before posting will give more credibility to opinions.
This is a forum for people who watch the Discovery Channel's TV show titled 'StormChasers.' Anyone who watches the show is entitled to comment. If you want a Wurman Fanboard and only fans allowed board nothing is stopping you from making one. If you want a board requiring meteorological degrees to post you can make one of those somewhere, too. They probably already exist.
Anyone who puts themselves out there on camera with no control over editing then they are what they are portrayed to be. For example: Josh said several things denigrating Timmer and other chasers, diminishing their contributions to 'science.' Later in the season's episodes (season 2) he is consoling Sean about something and completely flips on his original comments, the only reason for that was that he was diminishing an independent chaser in the first comment while consoling someone tied to his group whose aims Josh failed to help him achieve. This isn't the only example. Wurman has only himself to blame for the way he looks to people who will only know him from the show's portrayal. I am not obligated to investigate Wurman. I have always been interested in weather on a geek-level but armchair or 'while I'm traveling' weather analysis is as far as I go. I don't pretend to be anything else.
On the otherhand, watching the show I am seeing independent chasers who are using their own money and whatever other money they can get to support their costs contributing to science in their enterprising and innovative ways. Samaras has come up with some breakthroughs and with probably at a shoestring budget in his off time from a regular job. That is admirable.
The more scientific contributions the better, the more innovation and creativity used to come up with data, film, etc, the better. Who is to say who will get the next break through data?
Josh comes across as someone who feels that his way is the only way, the only acceptable data source. Maybe he needs to to continue with his fundraising. But I'm rooting for the smaller operations on their own time and dime.
Good points, save one. "Anyone who puts themselves out there on camera with no control over editing then they are what they are portrayed to be." Then, "Wurman has only himself to blame for the way he looks to people who will only know him from the show's portrayal." Other than that, I agree. And I never said I was a fan of Josh's. Personally, I feel he has the pomposity that most well-funded professorial-types can sometimes have. And he does make poor choices, on the show. I, too, am rooting for the indies! Thanks for the good discussion!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Whaling_Sux: I probably won't watch another season without Josh back at the helm in a leadership role. It's his baby and has been for over a decade now.
The DOW is his baby (after all he did invent it.) Storm chasing in general belongs to anyone able to do so. The series is called Storm Chasers not Josh and His Teams. Having said all that, I do agree with those who say it has become "The Reed Timmer Show", but you have to be careful what you ask for. There were many people who last year on this very forum kept talking about how they wanted more of Reed... Well, you got it! I have known it would be that way since well before the first episode aired. He was in all the promos way more than Sean and his crew, then his name was first in the opening sequence. I do like the show, but there is something that makes it not as good as the first two seasons. BUT, I will watch and DVR all the episodes and watch them over and over!
I'm posting an excerpt of an article written for Discovery magazine in May of this year. It details the fact that Josh was the one who actually started the discussions with the Discovery channel and risk his career in doing so. I've posted the URL to the whole article for those that might like to read the whole thing. I don't totally understand why your so down on Josh, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm not saying that this should be a JOSH only deal or that one must have a PHD to chase. I just don't really care for the new dynamics of the show. Anyway, the whole article also details the Greensburg, Kansas incident that you keep bashing Josh about. You might want to give it a once over.
The one thing I do agree with you on, is that Discovery is doing Mr. Wurman a great disservice, I personally believe he has accepted the editing style for the past couple of years in an effort to keep the Rotate project funded and operational. Again, just my opinions.......................
"The joking subsided in 1995 during the last days of a giant meteorological study called Vortex (Verification of the Origins of Rotation in Tornadoes Experiment), the largest tornado field project to date. Wurman—aided by his wife, Ling Chan, and another meteorologist —maneuvered the DOW, with its full-size radar equipment, close to the outer ring of a tornado rotating at about 170 miles per hour and captured three-dimensional images of these powerful winds. The details of the hidden architecture were breathtaking: an 1,800-foot-high ring of debris, a central eye with a downdraft within it, and evidence of an orderly array of wind speeds across the funnel.
“There was a huge blind area, and we erased that blind area instantly,” Wurman says.
Wilson still marvels at what Wurman achieved. “During Vortex, NCAR had a radar on an airplane called Eldora, and that got some really great data too,” he says. “If you take the DOW radars and airborne radar, boy, a lot of what we know about tornadoes today is pretty much from the data they collected.”
Airborne radar costs about a million dollars to operate per season, so it is rarely employed. Wurman’s mobile-radar trucks have been the single largest source of data over the past decade, including the remarkable capture in 1999 of images of the most powerful wind ever logged: 301 miles per hour.
Four years later, emboldened by his success, Wurman quit a tenured position in Norman and struck out on his own, establishing the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder. Unaffiliated, he risked his academic colleagues’ disdain by forming a complex alliance with television’s Discovery Channel to keep his fleet rolling. ""
After watching the past seasons again recently, you notice that Josh plays as a good balance for the other teams, and he and sean make for a good team in the end. I for one, am looking forward to his return this season, if for nothing else, than to have another team to follow. I wonder how Vortex will be handled.
I had a bad feeling about looking at this forum, knowing that I would by moved to explain something to a everyone about how a forum should work. Another login and password I have to enter and remeber...geez. The Discovery website specifically states that there is a forum for the actual stormchasers out there and there is this forum for the TV program. I enjoy the show, it has some science, it is also a show about specific stormchasers that are followed in the show. Everyone should be able to at least agree on those facts right? Why then are people talking about events the at are not related to the show...use the OTHER forum please! If someone has the opinion that the tv program portrays Josh as looking dumb or not the best stormchaser...it is their perception of the show. How can you tell them they are wrong? WHy would you even try? I think you should watch the shows and decide, to me Reed and Joel succeeded in their goals FOR the tv show, more than Josh and the TIV. I know you all are smart, nice, reasonable people in the real world. I can tell by your intelligent dialog. Who isn't acting like it. What is your motive for posting here??? You realize that this is only a tv show. It cannot even compare to reality. I understand that you obviously have reasearched facts to defend Josh's honor, I promise you, he doesn't question the validity and many scientific achievments and life's worth based on what any of us are posting on this forum, our opinions. I bet the entire cast gets a laugh out of some of you if they read this. SO if you are just wanted to start arguements I guess I am next. I can take it, and I want to be able to post on this forum about the TV SHOW. Can i refer to the original post and hopefully steer things in a more productive discussion? josephking I hope you dont mind if i add to your original comment ask something to those who replied, the original post was talking about intercepting a tornado. I don't know if Sean and the TIV would have done better without Josh and his team, but He chose to work with them so he must have a reason. In season 1 the show says that TIV's goal is to intercept IMAX footage, Josh wants to get data AND help TIV intercept, TVN is trying to get video footage. If you watch the show, realizing that there is more going on in real life, It seems that TVN was most successful at their goal. Season 2 TVN added the probe to their goals(video still seem to be the main goal). Again I think they were better at locating and getting close to the better storms. The Dow and research team only want there probes to intercept. TIV wants to Drive into one. I think you have to be honest and say that Sean wanted to be in harms way Josh's team had to stay safe, that is a big difference when you are dealing with the unprdictable. Sean needs to be able to predict and be as moble as possible to get the best chance of an intercept. Again I have to say that TVN was more successful on the show. So Sean might have realized that in season 3 because he has downsized...so far it hasent made a difference yet. TVN has been better than TIV or Josh at mobility and prediction. Seems like the new guys in season 3 aren't to shaby either.
Sorry if you feel this forum is not the correct place to talk about these subjects/issues. My take on the subject is; the title of this forum is" Storm Chasers: Talk About The Series" We have been discussing just that, the main characters, editing, chasing style's, the people on the outside, ect. Storm Chasers seems have moved away from their editing style and layouts used in the first two seasons, where else would you like to see those changes/issues discussed. The other forum seems to be for the discussion of people who would actually like to chase themselves. I also have not been admonished by Mod/Ivy for any of my posts, nor have I seen anyone else told by her that that we were getting off-topic for this forum. Discovery leaves a lot of information and data on the editing floor, we/I are just trying to discuss the facts concerning different individuals and our thoughts on the latest series. IMO, this is exactly the forum for those discussions. It is also common practice when posting in forums of this type, to link or post information that supports your perceptive of the issues being discussed.
Just a reminder, the forum has an <Ignore User> function, don't like a person and his or her posting style. Then by all means use the Ignore. Please don't take my post as a personal attack, just trying to let you know why I disagree.
I thought we were having an excellent discussion in this thread, no name calling or bickering back and forth. You don't find that to often in most of the threads here.
quote:
Originally posted by SeasofChz: The Discovery website specifically states that there is a forum for the actual stormchasers out there and there is this forum for the TV program. I enjoy the show, it has some science, it is also a show about specific stormchasers that are followed in the show. Everyone should be able to at least agree on those facts right? Why then are people talking about events the at are not related to the show...use the OTHER forum please!
SeasofChz, I think you're posts are right on, and can you tell me where the post for the chasers exists? I think getting real insight mixed in with the speculation would make for a good combo. SeasofChz, I have enjoyed your addition to this message board. Thoughtful and level headed, thx.
Hey guys he has a lot on his plate with the large team that he has and the ultimate safety of the group. I do believe he has even said that! god bless him for his expertise and being out there for all of us who live with tornadoe threats.,
Personally, I feel he has the pomposity that most well-funded professorial-types can sometimes have. [/QUOTE]
THIS! He does have a forecaster on his team. In Season 3 Ep. 2, Josh is advised the storm will form south. He says, "I have a feeling we need to go North." (or something like that.) So they do. And what do they get? A nice partly cloudy day. What happens south? An EF5. And the lady that is with them mentioned that this type of decision is not the first time. What's funny is the same thing happens the next day (editing, I know, but still.)
I felt Sean should have jumped ship and followed the TVN.net guys. I mean they were more successful (or at least portrayed that way) the first two seasons... and this year had the type of shot Sean has been wanting to get for 9 years... and it was an EF3.
Perhaps another commenter is correct. Josh does not really want to intercept. He wants data, but deep down, he does not want to intercept. This affects his decisions and compromises Sean's goals.
I am curious about Sean's financing. From S3ep4, he mentions that chasing will not break him, but getting the IMAX shot will be his lottery win. But then, he has to pay $3000 to repair the TIV and its all sharing hotel rooms. Still, about the financing, I wonder if Sean is dependent on Josh for grant money, etc.
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