And it also reveals how much we really do not know and complettely understand about the bible and Jesus. The bible reveals that Jesus was without sin, it is not a sin to marry in secret and have a child out of that marriage. I am not suggesting that is what Jesus did, but I think it rather interesting to consider he may have. I see nothing in his message that would be threatened or changed by that possibility.
But I think it will be of intrest to guage the response of his followers who have been changed by years of deceptive teachings and thinking. Often men are presented with truth, only to prefer the deception they have already absorbed. And thus their minds are sealed, much like this Tomb has been sealed by the pre-conditioned fears and thinking of others.
Its not easy to believe in God, but I assume that if God exist, then his mind would be extraordinary and beyound brilliant. Such a mind can surely hide things from humanity, or reveal things to them. Assuming that he created all things, the manipulation of those things would be simple to him. Thus any discovery that is significant on earth in any area, God must be behind it, as he would be behind those things not discovered.
Now how humanity manipulates things, is another story. If the bible bears any significance on what the truth is, then God must ultimately be righteous, or good. If that be true, then his manipulations, or influence, can be said to be of good also.
If Christ got married, and covered it up, had a son and kept that covered, that is reasonable to me. And it would change nothing I have seen in the salvation message that the bible teachs. Conversely, what will the manipulation of men do with this information, that is what I think cannot be trusted.
Men need to learn, that they have not learned enough about God. All men, believers or not, need to understand that. These recent events should burst the pride of Christians who think they know it all, and humble the pride of those who have taught that Jesus didnot exsist.
And if I am beginning to comprehend at the least, something about God, then I expect more of this to come. God will continue to reveal that we humans don't know anything about him.
I agree. People can not fully comprehend God. It seems as if people are too interested in putting themselves in God's place by telling everyone else how it is instead of respecting different perspectives. We don't even have access to the full capabilities of our own minds much less the ability to wrap our minds around God.
Well yes, thats right, we have enough shortcommings just trying to think for ourselves, muchless trying to figure out God. Whatever God is, if he is, he must be of vast intelligence. I have considered the question of what is God, and have come up with nothing. But I have also considered the alternitives of considering life, without there being a God. Although I am not Christian, I do agree with them on their belief in God, I simply see no other explination for life, that I can accept.
But I have seen christians literally " Spoil the waters" of those interested minds that seek to learn about God. And Perhaps not intentionally, but still they have done just that. So yes, religon can be its own worse enemy, for sure. It can be as Marx suggested, " The opiate of the people", or it can be salvation to those who believe. Or still nothing to others. But the more I consider God, the less I pay attention to christians or religon. That has its place for some, but as for me, I seek God on a one on one basics, and if I am to understand, it will be from him, undilouted by men who claim him. And the bible does not discourage any who do that, as far as I can understand it.
The effort of those who found this tomb of Jesus family, is, in one sense, a search for truth, and look at how some Christians are repulsed by that. If Jesus married, had sex, and had a child, where is the sin in that suggestion? None of that is a threat to his pureness, nothing that I can understand.
But I have serious questions at how Christians handle the Truth, and I am not convinced that God is behind how they have dealt with the truth. Nor am I convinced that Christians are Gods represenitives on earth. They think they are, believe they are, but I disagree with that. I don't know God, but my examination of scripture, does not reveal these modernday christians as the ones God choose to deal with. I don't know who they are, but they are not the present group on earth, I think they are yet to come, and will be nothing like this group.
It's been my position that the Institution of Christianity has elevated itself above and beyond the Man Himself (Jesus Christ). It's questionable if the messages and the interpretations being preached in the name of Jesus are indeed the true messages that Jesus has intended in the first place.
[quote]I do agree with them on their belief in God, I simply see no other explination for life, that I can accept.[/quote]
Why? Because life is complex and wonderful? Ok well then this God himself must be complex and wonderful. So who created him? Ultra-God? And who created Ultra-God? Ultra-Ultra-God? We can go on forever. But wait! maybe god always existed. However if that's the case why can't life have always existed? These kinds of arguments simply don't prove anything one way or the other.
I believe in God. I was raised as a Christian; however I have seen a lot of ugliness within the religion - as in many religions. I have seen good things within it as well. The bad things I am speaking of are things like people acting as if they think they are saved every week, the kind of corruption that involves money and so on. Then of course you have people using religion for evil purposes that really don't represent the religion as a whole. I have felt a pull to go beyond the religion I was raised with. I felt this way before now. I had a friend die recently, and in between the time that my friend died and the time I got the phone call, I felt extremely strong this strange but wonderful feeling of love come over me. I would have thought that it was just my imagination if it hadn't come before I got the phone call. Some things are hard to explain.
Well I certainly agree with that, Christianity has elevated itself above Jesus, in some areas, yes. And I certainly don't believe the messages being preached by them are the truth that Jesus intended. Christians, at least some of them, will admit to disagreement amoung their ranks over interpitation of scripture.
Even still, to some degree, Christianity has certainly helped some people, there is no doubt in my mind there, because I have seen that myself. I know people it has helped, and conversely hurt also. So I am on no crusade to destroy Christianity, it has its place in people, I just hold a need to see this thing through- for REAL. I believe in truth as it is, not as it seems to be. I can share the Christian need for truth, I just hope God is not limiting the satisfaction of that thirst for Christians alone, which I see as a serious error in belief that some Christians hold, as if Jesus came to earth only for the righteous.
In my study of the Scriptures, he came for sinners, of which that would include everyone. So I think we all have a chance to know this God in whom they believe in, but we need not let them define the way to accomplish that. I am not threatened by Christianitys views of God, nor by any secular views of him, because I am of the mind that if God exist, then he surely would not base any sinners need for him, on how others who believe in him, interpit him.
I believe that God is, or that he exist, but I believe that for some reason I cannot understand, he has allowed all this confusion about him to exist concurrently. And if God be Reason, which I think he must be, pure Reason, then there is a definte purpose in all that he has done, and will do. To consider otherwise, would be unreasonable.
According to the Bible, God is a Spirit being, whatever that means. It says that those who consider him, must do so " In the Spirit", and it also teachs such a thing is impossible to do without him leading that consideration. This is why I place the responsibility of knowing God" On God himself". If then we do not Know him, its because he has not chosen to Know us. And that is part of what I am hoping for humanity, that we are not " Lost", because God has not opened himself to all of us yet.
I reject the Christian senerio of those who are saved, or who know God, are in that condition because of something " They have Done", like accepted Christ or came to him all on their own. Because I have seen too many places in scripture that suggest the oppisite, that it is God who must first contact, or " Call" the human, drawing them to his truth. Christianity teachs " Come to Jesus", as if we can just walk right up to God and know everything about him. I view God very differently. I look at this worlds condition, and I see God as doing somethingelse, that suggest to me he has NOT drawn many people to him in history. But thats another story.
I think the worlds greatest chance, remains in Gods hand, not how Christians have explained him to the world. If the fate of humanity is in the hands of Christians, then much of humanity is doomed. They would only save themselves.
If our fate is in the mesage Jesus brought to earth, then I see no rational reason for all of sinful humanity to hold a future with this God who created us.
In a previous response, a point was brought up, " How can we know that God exist?" I think that is a reasonable suggestion. I think the answer lays in the " Personal belief system of the individual", it cannot be complettely otherwise. There exist only so much information to help in that belief, and I consider what these men have just discovered, as moreso in the line of " Proof that God exist", rather than some unholy information uncovered by research. Because it lends credance that Jesus is " Historical", not fiction. But even still, it still requires belief in Jesus to hold his teachings as facts.
It would be very hard to prove that God exist, to the mind already convinced that he does not. So I think it is better to approach this question of " What is God", from a different view. Which I think can be done by suggesting to yourself, well what if he does not exist? After considering that God may not exist, I view that consideration as a very temporal, physical point of view. But I understand the minds which have setteled on that thought, because what is humanity, but temporal physical existence. If God is a Spirit, we just cannot think on that level. I mean we just can't. Thats why we are confused. That is the root reason we do not understand God, because we are Physical existence. A missing ingredient in humanitys comprehension of God, can only be Gods Spirit itself, and the bible teachs that.
I then , to my best understanding, hold the responsibility of " Knowing God", to God alone. Not human will, not human desire, not human belief, not human anything. It , again in my view, is impossible to know God, or even believe in him, if God does not add the missing componants that the bible calls " Spirit". Now I believe that, so my greater need to know is just why God has NOT added that componant to us all. I certainly would like to have it, but I do not.
If the Christians are right, then I'm going to this hell they teach, for not having this missing ingredient that God gives. This is why I reject their teachings on just who God is dealing with, how and why he is dealing with them, and the ultimate fate of much of humanity. I don't view God as partial, or " Just picking the best of the crop of humans". Nor do I view his Great Mind, as having left the future of humanity, up to us ourselves, or the choices we make. I cannot accept that as reasonable, we are just too confused for him to leave that up to us, IF he is indeed reason.
And I begin to think God is Reason.
And I don't think , Reason, would allow a human mind to be responsible for things we cannot complettely comprehend.
I am sure that those who have been very religious all of their life may find all of this useless. I am someone who has not been religious. I am 60 years old and cannot remember the last time I went to chuch. I can only tell you this. I am an engineer/scientist and never bought into a religion. But now all of that has changed. Somehow, and I can't explain it , this is the first time in my life that I have found a reason to rejoice in a religion. Maybe it is just the possibility that the tomb of a religious figure has been found and that makes it more real. To a scientest this is just the kind of thing that gives us pause. To be honest this discovery has changed me. So pick it apart if you will but remember that it may just bring more followers into the Christian faith. Just be benevolent and think of it the way I do. OH HAPPY DAY.
I am amazed that anyone who is a true believer could be offended or could question their faith in the event the the hypothesis presented in this documentary were true. Either you believe that Jesus was the Messiah or you don't. The issues raised by this investigation do not in any significant way alter the fundamental tenents of Christianity. The acceptance of Christ as the savior should not depend on whether His resurrection was literal or figurative in nature; how does the absence or presence of a physical body alter the big picture? Why does a more human portrait of Jesus make Him less divine? Having to leave a wife and child can only further demonstrate the price Christ paid for our redemption. I believe that discovering more about Jesus in a more familiar context will only serve to strengthen people's faith.
I certainly agree that this discovery shouldnot offend those who believe, but many believers are already superficial anyway, and things like this can shake that kind of belief. That is why belief in God, shouldnot be based on what others believe. I see no harm in one needing proof of God, that is reasonable, which is why I believe only God can provide proof of himself, and futher believe that to be reason why I accept that he has not revealed himself to humanity as a whole, or all would believe.
God, by demand of reason, must be able to reveal himself, as he wishes, but he couldnot have done so to all, or all would believe. If God is as powerful as I begin to think he is, then there is no such thing as someone being left in the dark, if God does not wish them to be. Futher, if God exist, then he must be of Great imense power, such power has to be in a direction that holds no error. If that be the case, then nothing in our human history has happened, that God didnot want to happen. Following that line of reason, then anything Jesus did, was according to Gods will. Therefore he couldnot possibily have done anything that could destroy or weaken Gods purpose, because he came from God.
Based on what God must be, nothingelse could be greater than him. Therefore nothing humanity discovers on earth could change anything God has willed.
Citation? Not saying that is wrong, but that's not the general premise of the gospels. The premise at the very least from John's gospel is that Jesus WAS GOD. Read the beginning chapter of John's gospel. The Word of God, is with God, is God and became flesh. Jesus is God incarnate, or at the very least God's word incarnate. He also called himself Yahweh (translated I AM), the Hebrew name for God that was forbidden to speak, which is what causes the high priest to tear his robes and condemn Jesus for blasphemy. Ultimately he's condemned to death for claiming to be God.
If we are to believe that Jesus was God, than to say that Jesus had a child, is to say that God choose a woman to marry and have special children with. These children would then be God's children and ultimately the rest of the world would be out of the loop. That leaves us with no inheritance in Heaven unless of course we could argue that we're descendants of Jesus.
Which is why I do not believe that Jesus is God. Jesus is Jesus, God the Father is God the Father, I view them as two different beings. Interesting thing though, and quite confusing to me. So many Christians view Jesus as " God". Do they mean to say he is God the Father, or do they mean Jesus himself is a God. Interesting. Jesus is the son of God the Father, by his adnission, and the Father Gods admission. So I would conceed that Jesus is " A God", by that definition, but if one meant that the expression " Jesus is God", means that he is his Father, I certainly would disagree with that.
The bible records Jesus stating that his Father is " Greater than him", which, in my view, eliminates the possibility of them being the exact same being. One couldnot be greater than himself. I think the expression" Jesus is God", is misunderstood. And the Trinity teaching does nothing to help that. Yet Jesus does state that when you have seen him, you have seen the Father, so what did he mean by that? This is why I believe that a human just needs Gods direct help with understanding these matters, or we are just quessing. I personally grow tired of the quessing, and want to know the truth.
I am just convinced that men do not hold the true answers to these matters. Our interpitations are ultimately insufficent, and are really a part of the confusion of God and Jesus. Those two beings, and I believe they are two different beings, are the only ones who hold the truth, and none of us can force it out of them.
I think thats what really disturbs humanity, the thought of not really being in Control of our birth, and our future.
Still, if I had a choice in the matter, I would rather my future be in Gods hands, and not my ouw understanding, or anothers interpitation of who and what God is.
When The absorbtion of new knowledge is consider a Threat, then the person considers the Knowledge a Menace. That is why many in Christianity are upset at these most interesting findings. Instead of receiving this with open minds to learn, they react to it as a warning sign of some impending danger or damage. The uncovering of the Tomb is astounding, and I think the most significant find of the 20th Century.
But it also uncovers the very nature of Christianity, or those who have usurped the Name of Christianity. When people react to new Knowledge, as if you are trying to inflict damage upon them, they were really already damaged.
The Bible teachs that people are destroyed for their Lack of Knowledge, and God said that about his own people of that time. You can read that in Hosea 4:6. God states there that people will reject Knowledge, and mostly because they feel threatened by it, or feel it will prove them wrong.
One of the greatest Christian errors that I have studied, is their knack of absorbing traditional Knowledge, sticking with it, and refusing to grow from that point. Conversely, another problem I have seen, is the ability of some to go way out into left field with some kind of " New Age Cosmic Knowledge", and distort the Simple truth. So a God inspired Balance is the missing Link.
Still, even if some Christians refuse to absorb New Knowledge, Knowledge itself will still continue to Increase. And the Book of Daniel 12:4 admits as such. Even the Bible confirms that Knowledge will increase, and it didnot specify or limit that to a particular kind of Knowledge.
Its interesting however, I can understand the aprehension of some who are nervous to learn. The wrong knowledge could handicap you, or cripple you. And I think that is part of whats wrong with Christianity, they have crippled themselves with too much understanding that really has choked the true purpose of God. I hear more doom comming out of the Christian message than I do Salvation. Anytime the Gospel Message of the Bible spells out more doom than Salvation, its Message is in distortion.
Christianity itself is engraved within a type of " Tomb". A weird kind of cold, heartless tomb that is more dead than a grave of stone. It has embraced a doctrine called " Eternal Hell Fire Torture", and willnot let it go. A heartless misunderstood message than has dostorted the very Characther of the God I have seen in the bible and wish to learn about. I was raised to absorb that thinking, and it has taken years to break loose from it. A true study of the very nature of God, as listed in Galations fruits of the Spirit, helped free me from such an assualt on the very personality of Gods own Characther.
The closer you come to the Truth, the real truth, the MORE you desire for it to be uncovered.
I do hope they allow these men to go back and unseal this great find.
Jeff60, I am happy that you are rejoiceful pmickiel, I agree with you that God is the God of everyone, not just Christians, Jews, Muslums, and so on. I feel love for God, but not always a lot of love for religios institutions or those who present themselves as knowing enough to put themselves in God's place. To me the kind of "knowing" God that includes an intimate relationship with God is different from "knowing" God in as much as knowing exactly what He thinks or wants. Does that make any sense? I am not always reasonable, but I agree with you that God could not be anything but reasonable.
I also agree with you about the find. I am very open and excited to learn more about it. I love to learn new things about life. I never say never. That is what makes my soul strive to move forward to destinations I have yet to prove.
Greetings Btani. Well yes, I agree. Knowing God in a relationship, would be very different than Knowing just how and what he thinks. The Bible does state that his ways are far above our ways of thinking. I think it would be quite something to Know him. I look forward to meeting him, if that is to occur.
The most impressive thing about God I have learned, is his own Characther. The Fruits of the Spirit listed in Galations are the very nature of God, I believe. And it is quite impressive to read them. It describes God as Kind and Gentle, Loving and Patient, Longsuffering and in perfect Self Control. Joyful and Peaceful, nothging like this wrathful God that some teach about. The Wrath of God is his Reaction to Sin, not to Sinners themselves.
No Human being shopuld feel Threathened by God. He is not out to harm us.
A desire to know God is not a common thing that people want to discover, and I don't fault people for that. If God be God, then he is powerful enough to reveal himself to all people, he has not. And the behavior of humanity in history is the direct result of that.
One of the greatest mysterys , in my view, is why God has chosen to not reveal himself to humanity in this century. I personally think that Evil exist, because God has withdrawn himself from humanity, to a certain degree.
Evil exist, and in my view, nothing can exist unless God wills it to exist.
And thats something I just cannot figure out, why God created evil.
I enjoy archeaology and think we must keep an open mind about what is discovered beneath the earth.
I found this program interesting, and something to think about.
Religion is about mysteries, an unfolding of the unknown. We humans don't agree on the subject. Our conflicts about creation are clues that we still don't know the mysteries, or we would agree.
I wish there was more open-mindedness and less offense and defense about the subject.
I want to thank the producers and film maker for bringing the ossuaries to our attention, even though they were largely criticized for it.
Even Ted Koppel, whom I have admired, seemed to favor those who opposed the film. I was disappointed in him that he wasn't more balanced in leading the discussion.
I felt sorry for the film maker that his work wasn't valued. I wanted to tell him, "They scoffed at the Wright brothers, too." Some of us truly understood what he was trying to say, and appreciate it.
I became a member of the Discovery Channel chat room, just so I could say the above. I've never been in a chat room before.
Openmindedness is really a consumption of knowledge, not a rejection of it. But when you bring in the possibility of Jesus having sex into the picture, self righteous Chriatians get bent all out of shape, as if sex in marraige is now a " Dirty thing". Because if Jesus had sex, had a son, he surely was married, he wouldnot have done it otherwise.
This would futher prove that Jesus was more human than I had suspected. The bible says that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not by human spermodazoa. That set Jesus apart, in my view, no other human being has been born without Sperm entering into the females womb. Thus one could conclude that Jesus was "Not Really Human", being conceived by the Holy Spirit, God could have made him a " Super Being", which he was to a certain extent, anyone who could live 33 years and not sin must be superior. But if Jesus married and had a son, in my view, that makes him more human than I imagined.
It would mean he had the physical ability to procreate. Being born without the physical help of another mans sperm, one could argue that Jesus was not totally human, but him having a child would help prove that he was totally human.
The finding of this tomb is very significant, greater than any amount of gold one could find. If this is the final resting place of Jesus remains, in my view, that places us in a very good position to PROVE that God exist.
If Jesus was the Son of God on earth, then to find him, or his remains, or the place of his tomb, highly suggest to me that he was indeed a reality, not just historical fiction.
I recall reading in the bible that anyone who would believe in God, must first believe that he is, or that he exist. It then states that he will reward those who seek him diligently. These men diligently sought out Christ remains, and may well have found them. If good and Evil exist, which force would you think will seek to keep this from occuring?
One could make a case either way.
But if God is behind this, I am interested in what is yet to come from all this.
I think the discovery of the tomb, is erie simular to the personal discovery of God in ones belief system. I don't think God is just that avialible to be found. Oh one could find a distortion of him just about any day, but the real God is just not that avialible, as far as I can determine.
In fact, one of the reasons I believe evil is so prevelent on earth, is because God is not on earth. All the information I have seen in the bible, explains that God cannot be around sin, which certainly places him nowhere on earth. So where is he?
What is man that God would create us, then leave us to ourselves? I certainly would like to find the answer to that. Uncovering an earthly tomb is one thing, but uncovering the real God himself, as he is right now, thats another. Humans have always searched for God, and I begin to think no one has ever found him. Which makes Jesus life even more relevant.
We'd had better hope that Jesus was Gods son, and that his message was true. Because outside of that, humanity has only itself to look forward to.
That is very interesting what you said - about God not being able to be found. I think, but don't know for sure, that you are correct. I never thought about it that way. Thank you for giving me something new to think about. Peace to you too. You seem to really put your heart into your words, as well as your mind. This is refreshing.
Dear pmickiel, I find that I must agree with you, especially on a couple of things you write. I have spent nearly 34 years studying many various religious texts--from several disciplines. I also believe that there will be more of these discoveries(there have been several over the past few years) to come and that it does not in any way weaken or take away from my spiritual beliefs. We must continue to expand our knowledge of and relationship to "God", whatever we may believe him\her to be. We must evolve spiritually if we ever hope to "move on from where we presently are". Why is the idea of a "Jesus family tomb" so frightening to many? Even someone considered to be a knowledgeable and good Christian, would have to know that the Bible has been manipulated and changed over the centuries, by various individuals for various reasons....books removed, words and punctuation added or changed or?? Why would or could this be any different? It is also obvious why Jesus and the family would wish to keep this secret--privy only to a few family members or disciples. So again, why is this so difficult to think of as at least
