Greetings, The marines and SEALS are looking at SPIKE. It is supposed to a cheap weapon that is to be used on trucks or a light vehicles where a Javelin atgm would be overkill. I saw a article on it at Naval weapons testing web site.
Outwardly, the SPIKE looks a lot like a M-136/AT-4. I wonder what the difference between them is.
As a sidebar, I've read that the M-72 LAW is making a comeback.
It makes sense though. There are thousands of them paid for & sitting in storage. The weapon is effective against vehicles & light armor. It's also, cheap, eimple, and compact enough that every man in a squad can carry one, as opposed to a M-136 or Javelin.
hmm, i would try to get my hands on an m72 if i was over there, good small rocket.
dont really need an at4 for a single pathetic enemy when we can simply use a cheap effective m72... kinda like choosing between a hand grenade or a mouse trap for a mouse... grenades fun, but the trap is more fit for the job.
The law is making a comeback in Iraq. They found that AT4's, SMAW's and the other larger rockets were overkill for some things. It is an older weapon but still a good one.
The LAW lacks the punch to defeat armor. It never really worked well in Vietnam and is considered more of a munition (i.e.: explosive firepower) than an AT rocket, meaning don't bet-your-life that a LAW can kill an armored vehicle because it didn't when fired in Vietnam at that SOF camp against some NVA armor. The LAW weighs just five pounds so soldiers don't mind carrying it for added explosive firepower. Sure, the LAW specs *claim* to penetrate so many inches of steel, but in reality, it doesn't really, a lot having to do with armor slope angle.
According to what an Army soldier told me, the LAW rocket has now reliability problems. I guess the rockets have been sitting on the shelves for so long that the engines or casings developed problems. Don't ask me for the details; I don't know.
The AT-4 was developed to counter the deficiencies of the LAW. It weighs more...14.75 pounds, meaning a GI can only really carry one. And it only has a range of less than 984 feet, but can travel that distance in less than a second! It's just a few thousand dollars too, so not too expensive. Best of all, it usually works---Popular Science It probably won't kill a current MBT from a frontal-shot, but you can bet-your-life that it'll kill an AFV more than a LAW will.
The SPIKE is "groundbreaking" because it's guided, unlike "dumb" LAWs and AT-4s, which only fly straight where aimed. Not only that, SPIKE is pretty darn light and cheap too since most guided missiles cost lots of money and weigh a lot. From what I read, SPIKE was made using existing military components that the Naval Weapons CRANE specialists cobbled together.
I'd like to see FUTUREWEAPONS cover the SPIKE and if the U.S. military will buy it.
The RPG-7 is an extremely utilitarian weapon. There seem to be millions of them in service (as much to our dismay we learned can knock helicopters out of the sky in Somalia).
It seems like the U.S. designs these overly-complex shoulder-fired guided missile systems designed to take out main battle tanks during a potential invasion of Europe during the Cold War.
There are times when the U.S. soldier/Marine might need and anti-armor shoulder-fired rocket (such as in a future conflict with say Iran, North Korea, or China), but in the current conflicts it seems like unnecessary, expensive additional weight for the average warfighter. How many Iraqi tanks are left to battle?
The old LAW seems much better for the current type of MOUT fighting going on in Iraq. If a group of enemy soldiers are firing at you from behind a concrete wall, hit the entire wall with a LAW.
I'm not so big on the idea of the E-SMAW, or whatever that thing is Mack showed that can destroy an entire building or bunker. It has been shown that many times insurgents take over the home of innocent Iraqis as a base of fire against coalition forces. If you fire a SMAW into that house and destroy the whole thing you possibly kill the mother and children who were cowering in a corner of the house.
Besides, if you want to destroy an entire building, call-in air support.
Something like the LAW or RPG-7 seems much better geared for the typical battle to me. Lightweight and useful for everything except perhaps taking out heavy armor, in which case you'd need a specialized warhead anyway.
The OICW was a good idea with its fused 20mm grenade. There was a laser rangefinder that would program the projectile before it was fired. So if some guys are firing at you from behind a pile of debris or a wall or something and your 5.56 rounds aren't penetrating, simply aim for the wall and fire the grenade. It would be programmed to explode shrapnel down on the enemy position from above. Makes it harder to take cover for the enemy...
The RPG is a scary weapon, not only against the target, but for the shooter as well.
The blackblast is so huge, that there are some ways you just *can't* fire the RPG without injuring or killing yourself. I read in a gun magazine by a gun author that wrote that you cannot fire the RPG this way or that way because the backblast would kill you. He fired RPGs before; he should know. For example, if you aim the launcher at the sky, you can't do so kneeling because the RPG's butt against the ground would backblast and seriously injure or kill you. Makes sense, doesn't it? In fact, in HISTORY CHANNEL's "SHOOTOUT!", an Afghanistan soldier fired the RPG with the American adviser running behind it. The backblast threw the American into the air. (In fact, I think it's rerun on HISTORY tomorrow?: "Shootout, Afghanistan's Deadliest Snipers."
I can understand why the U.S. frowns at the RPG design. While having a RPG would make for a larger diameter warhead (Panzerfaust 3 and JGSDF have these "RPG-like" launchers) and allow for many reloads to a launcher, carrying the RPG ammo in a backpack is highly dangerous. In 1993 Somalia, in the non-fiction book "BLACKHAWK DOWN" by Mark Bowden, an AH-6 fired its gatling guns at a RPG-gunner with a backpack filled with RPG rounds. The guy literally went up like a Roman Candle and splattered the AH-6's windshield! Now imagine that happening to a U.S. squad...KABOOM...everyone's gone!
If a LAW or AT-4 gets hit in a lucky place, it may ignite the rocket motor and shoot the rocket into wherever. But at least the whole thing won't explode. The idea of carrying a backpack stuffed with RPG rounds has its advantages and disadvantages.
Originally posted by il2: The blackblast is so huge, that there are some ways you just *can't* fire the RPG without injuring or killing yourself.
I guess like any weapon, the user needs to be trained when, where, and how to use it. The U.S.'s enemies seem to be doing quite well with it. Even took down a few Blackhawk helicopters with them in Somalia, not something the RPG-7 was designed for...
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carrying the RPG ammo in a backpack is highly dangerous. In 1993 Somalia, in the non-fiction book "BLACKHAWK DOWN" by Mark Bowden, an AH-6 fired its gatling guns at a RPG-gunner with a backpack filled with RPG rounds. The guy literally went up like a Roman Candle and splattered the AH-6's windshield!
So the guy wasn't hosed by being hit by helicopter-mounted machine guns, it was the RPGs going off that did it? I'll concede the RPGs exploding sure made it a lot messier!
Let's face it, all troops carry a large amount of stuff that blows up. It's not like U.S. troops don't carry stuff that shouldn't blow up. Is a LAW or a Javelin less apt to explode if hit by heavy machine gun fire?
I'll be the first to admit that I've never seen combat, thank goodness. I can only judge from films I've seen which those who WERE THERE say it was exactly like that. For example, in the film Blackhawk Down there were freakin' RPGs everywhere. The American soldiers would have done well to have similar firepower in that situation. Luckily the Americans had air support, which made all the difference in the world, but their little M203 40mm grenade launchers didn't have nearly the same effect as the Somalis' RPG-7s.
For a .50 cal to cause a high order detonation on a RPG you will have to hit the rocket motor. If you hit the charge itself you will more than likely cause a low order det. Either way if you hit a bad guy with a .50 cal RPG or not they are having a bad day. So it does not matter.
I guess like any weapon, the user needs to be trained when, where, and how to use it. The U.S.'s enemies seem to be doing quite well with it. Even took down a few Blackhawk helicopters with them in Somalia, not something the RPG-7 was designed for...
If I remember correctly they welded steel plates to the rear end of the launchers to redirect the backblast.
I think I heard something like that as well Atreides. But remember if you are on an incline you can fire up. MOUT is three dimensional so you have plenty of opportunities to fire up without fear of the backblast getting you (edges of buildings and what not). But they very well may have done as you said. Ill check up on it and let you know what I find.
I remember reading that Al Qaeda taught the Somali warlord's troops how to modify the fuse in the RPG-7 to better take out the Blackhawks in Somalia. This was well before Al Qaeda was a household name.
It was something about modifying the fuse so that a timer doesn't self-destruct the warhead or something. It was years ago I read this (I think I read it in Eye Spy Magazine ). If I'm remembering correctly the RPG-7 warhead is designed to self-destruct in case it misses its intended target. The timer would self-destruct the warhead before it would reach the required distance between firer and target Blackhawk. So they changed the fuse to take-out the self-destruct circuit or something.
I wish I could remember the story better, but I think that's how it went.
They very well may have modified the projectile. But I doubt they had the ability to do so. The warhead would self detonate at 1000 m. Max sighting range for the RPG7 is 500m. From what I remember the longest shot on a bird was around 200 m. So if they did do as that site says it was probably for a different reason. Maybe they did it so they could use them for IDF?
I think Ian is getting it backwards, I think what they would do is cut the fuse shorter so they could use the RPG as an improvised flak round.
I've been looking through Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down trying to find a reference to the modifications the Somalis made to their RPG-7s, I know it's in there but I can't seem to find it now.
Originally posted by devilpup07: They very well may have modified the projectile. But I doubt they had the ability to do so. The warhead would self detonate at 1000 m. Max sighting range for the RPG7 is 500m. From what I remember the longest shot on a bird was around 200 m. So if they did do as that site says it was probably for a different reason. Maybe they did it so they could use them for IDF?
It was a long time ago I read it (probably late 2001 or early 2002). And it was in Eye Spy magazine, not a website.
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is "IDF"?
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Originally posted by atreides88: I think Ian is getting it backwards, I think what they would do is cut the fuse shorter so they could use the RPG as an improvised flak round.
That could be it. My memory is sadly poor. However, I thought I did remember something about disabling a timing circuit of some sort. I remember this because before reading this I had no idea that RPGs had a self-destruct mechanism.
The whole point of the article I read in Eye Spy magazine was that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda had been active for years and even assisted in "Blackhawk Down" by sharing some of their know-how which directly resulted in the Somali warlord's forces downing U.S. helicopters.
After I slept on it, I think atreides88 is right. They didn't disable the self-destruct system, they used it to blow the grenades up before they hit the helicopters.
As for the RPG-7 grenades being shaped charge, I'm sure they are in the anti-tank round, but the RPG-7 has all kinds of different rounds available. Maybe the ones they were using were HE or fragmentation?
I'm pretty impressed by human ingenuity though. I would've never thought of doing that to the grenades (not that I'd even begin to know HOW). They realized they can't hit the orbiting Blackhawks (that'd have to be an enormously lucky shot) so they made their own "flak" to bring them down.
Read the pub I listed in my above post. Yes there are Fragmentation and Thermobaric grenades for the RPG7. BUt only the HEAT rounds self detonate.
OK lets say all the rounds for the RPG7 self detonate. Doing as you say would not really help them. The only way it would work is if they only fired from the specific distance they preset the round for. It is not something you can change in the field while in the fight.
I am not saying they did not do it (with the HEAT rounds). I am saying if they did do it that it would not deliver the desired effect.
Say you preset the grenade to detonate at 200 m. Then shot at a bird 300 m away. Waste of a round. You then fire at a bird at 100m. You would get the same effect as you did before you modified the grenade.
Besides the Fragmentation grenade for the RPG7 only had an effective radius of I believe 20 m (range estimation is difficult when you are not properly trained the odds of them getting it correct were slim). There are too many variables for it to work correctly.
RPG carrying guys may have a backpack. The backpack has cylinderical slots to store eight RPG warheads vertically, warheads facing up. That's eight warheads and motors compared to just one rocket for the US GI in a LAW or AT-4. So if hit, all eight RPG warheads can explode, sending the guy up like a Roman Candle. The RPG warheads are exposed, after all, not like LAWs and AT-4s which are housed in a rocket launcher to protect them from the elements.
