I would like to respond to the discussion regarding animals having feelings or being able to sense impending doom. When I was about 14 of 15, I worked on a friend's farm on weekends. One Saturday morning my friend's dad was taking cattle to the slaughterhouse. Being totally unknowing about such things I agreed to go along. Well I'm nearly 68 years old now and I have never forgotten what I saw. The cattle were penned in an area immediately beside the entrance to the slaughterhouse. So as it became bloodier inside the cattle began to get restless. When it came time to move the last two into the area where the guy knocked them on the head, they were completely panicked and both ran into chute together. They were jammed in and couldn't move. Scared to death they were, the guy just stood on one and did his job and then stood on the other, because it couldn't fall, and knocked the second one. It was awful. Then it was the pig's turn, they screamed the whole time. I wish I had never gone. I cannot get the horrid sights or sounds out of my head. When animals smell blood they get scared. Animals do have feelings, they do have emotions,it just that in farming one never takes the time to find out. And what about the 4-H clubs. They raise this beautiful animal and then slaughter it. Makes no sense. If you are going to slaughter it why create a bond between you and the animal. I remember that picture in the L.A. Times many years ago which showed a young girl having to turn over her animal that she had raised. Her father said it was good for her to experience this...Rubbish..
Oh, yeah and take my word for it, there are no pigs beging kept in office building in downtown L.A.
Sheesh. What planet do the people on these forums live on?!
Animals are here for FOOD, that's why God put them here. Ever hear of something called a FOOD CHAIN?! Considering that cheetahs and animals in the wild hunt down their prey and maul them to death, I'd say that the fact that we atleast try and kill our prey before we make it into food speaks volumes.
People eat meat, we like meat, and we don't care how it got to our plate.
Pigs are FOOD. I don't care if the farmer beat that pig every day of it's life, kicked it in the head, the put a shotgun to it's temple. I want some babyback ribs to smoke because they taste good!
And, hey, I like animals. I own dogs and wouldn't hurt them, ever, but, then again, I'm not going to eat them.
I. Don't. Care. If animals are abused before I get the chance to cook them up and have a nice, bug, juicy Ribeye Steak or some fried chicken, the stuff tastes good. Ain't no Sea-Kelp Protein Dish with a side of Hamburger-Shaped Tofu is going to replace a big, juicy, steak.
Get over it.
Take your tree-hugging, hippy, green-pooing nonsense elsewhere.
You need to do a tad of RESEARCH before spouting this nonsense. Cats purr when overly stimulated - FACT Dogs wag their tails like crazy when scared to death - FACT
Growth hormones in ALL pigs raised for food???????? Please provide your research information and then I will show you the research information of the raw pork I feed my DOGS that is free of all hormones.
Try reading and not just knee jurk reactions.
Sows roll on babies and crush them - FACT
Mother Nature is more cruel than any farm. Try letting those cute little piglets being gobbled up while still alive by a predator. Yea, lets let them roam free and die of starvation or thirst or injuries during mating season. Ever think of the poor pig injured while FIGHTING for a mate and dies because his jaw is broken and starves to death.
Geese - at least get some facts.
And read up on male circumsion - now that might open your eyes!!
Mike - Fantastic show, love you and watch every week.
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Originally posted by raysan: To Zulikens:
Even if pigs have been used for hundreds of years as sources of meat that doesn't mean that we have to torture them while they are alive. Factory Farms are a far cry from traditional farms of yesteryear where animals were allowed to live in a farm yard and stretch their legs and run and feel the sun and wind in their faces. Those poor pigs in those small filthy cages, well, there is no word to describe their condition other than totally inhumane. As for the piglet getting stuck with the needle, that was not for their own good, but rather for the good of the farmer's pocketbook, less the piglet dies. The farmer is painfully aware that any animal kept under those filthy, crowded conditions is likely to succumb to disease. And by the way, those vaccinations are bad for you too. When you consume factory raised meats, you are consuming residues of all of those vaccinations and growth hormones that those animals were injected with during their short miserable lives.
And to Knilja:
Animals do have emotions, certainly not as fully developed as ours, but aniamals are capable of feeling contentment, fear, anger, and I would say even love... Have you ever been around a cat or a dog? What do cats do when they are content, they purr, when they're angry, they pull their ears back and let out a low growl, what do dogs do when they are afraid, they yelp, and when they are happy, they wag their tales. What's more, history books are full of heroic dogs that have saved dying humans. There are even statues dedicated to hero dogs. How can anyone say that animals don't feel emotions? And it's been proven that pigs are as intelligent if not more intelligent than dogs. I mean, it's not as if you are talking about clams or fish. You are talking about mammals with highly developed nervous systems. Many people who keep pigs as pets, say that they make wonderful, sensitive and intelligent pets.
As a former farmer and a person that still helps friends on their farms I will gaurantee you that I can read an animal as good as anyone if a animal is sick you can tell if they are ticked off you can tell if they are just playing you can tell.Yes I made money on livestock that is the name of the game you do that by keeping stock healthy and happy.If I allow animals to become so sick that they are dying from easily treated diseases I would of been arrested for cruelty to animals.How can anyone say that it is better to not treat a sick animal than to give it antibiotics?If docking tails and cliping teeth cause so much pain for the pigs why do they stop squealing almost instantly when you set them back down?If you think that slaughtering them is cruel have you ever seen a coyote take down a month old calf?How about a hawk taking a rabbit that is cruel.I think keeping a dog in town is cruel why keep a animal like a dog in a apartment or house how is that not cruel?As far as the manure if you realised the restrictions that we follow to apply manure for fertilizer you would ask why we don't just use artificial?Half the rules are stupid because they are written by people that have no clue what they are talking about all they know is that it sounds good to them so it must be right. Raysan Once again here is a small group of people trying to force their ideas on everyone else.If you don't like it here so much then go []!I hope you arn't eating while you wrote any of the posts on here because it really ------ me off when people [criticize] farmers with their mouthes full
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The green pastures and idyllic barnyard scenes of years past are now distant memories. On today’s factory farms, animals are crammed by the thousands into filthy windowless sheds, wire cages, gestation crates, and other confinement systems. These animals will never raise their families, root in the soil, build nests, or do anything that is natural to them. They won’t even feel the sun on their backs or breathe fresh air until the day they are loaded onto trucks bound for slaughter.
Animals on today’s factory farms have no legal protection from cruelty that would be illegal if it were inflicted on dogs or cats: neglect, mutilation, genetic manipulation, and drug regimens that cause chronic pain and crippling, transport through all weather extremes, and gruesome and violent slaughter. Yet farmed animals are no less intelligent or capable of feeling pain than are the dogs and cats we cherish as companions.
The factory farming system of modern agriculture strives to maximize output while minimizing costs. Cows, calves, pigs, chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese, and other animals are kept in small cages, in jam-packed sheds, or on filthy feedlots, often with so little space that they can’t even turn around or lie down comfortably. They are deprived of exercise so that all their bodies’ energy goes toward producing flesh, eggs, or milk for human consumption.
I'm new to this board and after reading the post in this thread I'm really disappointed. It really upsets me that someone would call a farmer a pusher, this is pure BULL, and that farmers don't care about their animals. This is all just so much bull!! Yes, farmers do what they can to make a profit after all Farming is a business,farmers do it to make a living not just to say "I'm a farmer" Farming is more than just a way to make a living, it is a way of life. Farmers do what they do because they have a passion for it. Farmers care about the livstock and or crops they raise and spend thousands of dollars to keep them healthy and profitable. Farming isn't a 9 to 5 job. A farmer cares much more for what he does and how he cares for his crops, livestock, and land than any factory worker that just puts in his time as long as he has his pension, benifits,and per hour wage.
Look at the crulety in the cities. People mistreating their pets, heck, isn't it cruel to leave a pet locked up in an apartment all day, they should be free to roam after all its what cats and dogs do in the wild. PETA is scum, they do anything they please even destroying private property, and are respossible for the deaths of thousands of animals they claim to be trying to protect.
I've seen animals do much more cruel things to each other than humans do to provide food for their families.
Pigs are carnivorous will eat each other, and have no mercy for an injured pig. Bottom line...Farmers farm for profit, because its a business, but they do have a passion for it and care.
I would be interested in hearing what Mike Rowe (or another representative from the Discovery Channel) has to say in regards to some of the concerns voiced in this (and similar) threads.
I find it interesting that the users who feel the treatment of some of the animals on the show was perfectly humane (or who feel that animals have no emotions or feelings), are responding with mostly anger and insults. Are there any educated people on this board, who beleive through proven scientific research, that animals feel no pain? Perhaps they can advise us of these scientific findings?
Someone said something along the lines of "I guess I wont vaccinate my daughter, because it will hurt her"... I dont have any issue with the vaccinations they showed on the program (they are not inhumane by any means), but I suggest perhaps pulling your daughter's teeth out now, since they will only hurt her later on when she starts to teethe. Appalling suggestion, I know. But to suggest that cutting 1/2 a tooth off (and I do remind you that they were cutting 1/2 of their teeth off, hence the blood loss and the requisite iron shot) is pain-free, is ludicrous.
For a simple book that any layperson can read on the subject of animals and emotion, I might suggest "When Elephants Weep" by Jeffrey Masson. It contains irrefutable scientific evidence in regards to the emotions of animals.
I definitely feel the Discover Channel should address this issue, and in future, strongly consider the insertion of 'graphic material' warnings at the beginning and commercial breaks of shows of this graphic and (to some) dusturbing nature.
come on! Get a life. There are things that are done on farms that are necessary for the health of the animals. If you don't like what you see then turn it off. I'm sick and tired of you people who live in a vacuum and believe that the world is all sugar and spice. If it were up to you pork would cost $15.00 a pound and there wouldn't be any farmers left to feed the world. Do you believe that food actually comes from a supermarket shelf? I suppose that you feel it is inhumane to put cows in a stall to milk them. Or maybe we should ask the cow if they want to give us milk and maybe we should talk to them about giving us milk without touching them, after all we are touching their teats. Maybe you consider that improper touching.
Originally posted by whippet77: Someone said something along the lines of "I guess I wont vaccinate my daughter, because it will hurt her"... I dont have any issue with the vaccinations they showed on the program (they are not inhumane by any means), but I suggest perhaps pulling your daughter's teeth out now, since they will only hurt her later on when she starts to teethe. Appalling suggestion, I know. But to suggest that cutting 1/2 a tooth off (and I do remind you that they were cutting 1/2 of their teeth off, hence the blood loss and the requisite iron shot) is pain-free, is ludicrous.
I Believe you are refering to my statement. I made it in reponse to an argument where there shouldn't by any vaccinations.
If you would have read up on the teeth thing. It is done to prevent them from using those teeth to injure other pigs. Pigs naturally are carniviors, and those teeth can grow into what I would describe as "tusks".
I don't doubt that animals feel pain. I have seen it. I feel pain when I go to the doctor, and dentist, but it is for my own good. The same applies here. Speaking of Pulling Teeth. How many people still have thier Wisdom Teeth?
And B.S. on the animals on "Factory Farms" have no legal protection. There are laws for cruelty that apply. And please don't apply the "Factory Farm" label to the Farm that was shown. That is a Family Farm if I ever saw one.
I too don't doubt animals feel pain. Pigs squeal for all kinds of reasons, some squeal if you just pick them up, and yes because of pain too. There are times you can tell the difference by the tone of the squeal and none in the show in question were squealing in pain! Yes I'm a farmer that use to raise pigs. We never cut teeth or tails, but there were times I wish we had. We had a small farrow to finish operation along with crops. Even during planting and harvest (very busy times) I would walk through the barn twice to three times per day. I went in one night and everything was fine. The next morning I went in to find blood everywhere. We had a tail biter. I pig would bite the tail off another pig, once the blood started others would join in, but there was always one that would start it. I spent hours watching for that one, and the only way to stop it was to get rid of the culprit. We had on occasion lost pigs to infection from thier tails being bitten off. Clipping the teeth and tails does help prevent this. Its not cruel!! You people that think its all about money don't understand 99.9% of farmers and their passion for their job. Pigs are clean animals. The reason they roll in the mud and such is to help keep cool, you see pigs can't sweat and rolling in the mud or whatever is available helps cool them off.
PETA-( People Eating Tasty Animals)
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I am sorry your incorrect, factory farms are dirty, are full of horomones, that is why we are so sick. The meat makes our immune systems so weak, that disease has a chance to grow, and mutate. Factory farms are unhealthy, can you say pfiesteria, foot and mouth disease etc... This is all caused by factory farms!!! Remember the hurricane that hit in 1999, the many pig farms in North Carolina etc.... That released so much disease into the oceans etc... Come on folks, wake up and smell the cruelty...
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Originally posted by farmboy971: Ok who posting here is a member of PETA? Raysan??? Come on. Get some facts straight before you post.
I grew up on a Farm that raised livestock. Yes everything is done with profit in mind, but profit means healthy and happy animals. If they are not healthy and happy they do not put on weight, or produce offspring.
Eventhough we did not raise hogs, I was around people that did raise them, I can tell you that the piglets are not kept from the sows after birth, unless they try to "reject" them and stomp them or even eat them (Pigs are naturally Carnivoires(sp)). This happens quite regularly with all species, even in "open traditional" farms. To combat this the piglets (or other animal offspring) have to be protected, and sometimes specially fed. So no they do not become "psychotic".
Artificial Insemination? Come on. This is has been done with humans for longer. Can you say "Test Tube Babies". Only in the last 10 years has this caught on with livestock.
The So Called "Factory Farms" Are not harmfull and Unhealthy, and not devoid of Kindness. They are not Filled with hormones. Anibiotics yes. Have you given your pets any shots lately? Did you listen to the reasons that were given for removing the Teeth and Having the Tails cut off? Hygene and protection from getting infections. We do worse things to ourselves for protection, How many people get thier wisdom teeth pulled?
I Really wish you would please not spread rumors and hearsay about what goes on American Farms. Many of them still are Family Farms. They one you saw on Dirty Jobs to me looked like it was run by a family farm. These are Honest hard working americans out there. They take pride and really care for the animals that they raise. And some of them are my family.
Originally posted by martycharette: I am sorry your incorrect, factory farms are dirty, are full of horomones, that is why we are so sick. The meat makes our immune systems so weak, that disease has a chance to grow, and mutate. Factory farms are unhealthy, can you say pfiesteria, foot and mouth disease etc... This is all caused by factory farms!!! Remember the hurricane that hit in 1999, the many pig farms in North Carolina etc.... That released so much disease into the oceans etc... Come on folks, wake up and smell the cruelty...
We are soooooo Sick now days. Hummmm. Seems to me, life expentancy has been rising. Foot and mouth Disease was an issue in the UK and Europe, not the US. It used to be a problem, not anymore.
There are some large coorporate Farms out there, And I am not for that type of Farming. Just like any large business, it has good and bad points.
remember hearing about the issues they had in the Carolina's. Large Lagoons that Got Flooded and Spilled over, but If I remember they had issues with the city treatment systems too. I read some reports on the Katrina damage in the south and the livestock systems held up well, but the city and industrial systems failed. Natural Disasters cause widespread damage.
I say wake up and smell the bacon frying in the morning, Oh, can I have some Eggs too.
Even though I posted this in other discussions about this subject, I will post it again, as it seems to fit. What was on the show was in no way cruel. Cruel is when 50 pigs are left for 2+ weeks to fend for them selves because the "farmer" wanted to go on vaccation. I worked as an Animal Control Officer and that really happened. I am also a Vet. Tech. The reason for cutting the teath is so the pigs don't hurt each other and the people working with them. Secondly how is it much diffrent than when a horses teeth are filed down. Also the reason why they cut the tails is so the other pigs don't bite them off in a squabble, as that would be worse. Also the vaccanations are needed. It is no diffrent than when children or other animals, i.e. cats and dogs, are vaccinated. And with the cnacer issue..... I don't know if you pay attention but almost EVERYTHING is blamed for causing cancer, including potato chips. IF you don't like the way these animals are raised, don't eat them. IF you already don't eat them don't try to push your views on the rest of us. Passing on incorrect informtion is the way a lot of the falsehoods you have refered to have been turned in to "facts".
If you want to see animal cruelty/abuse spend time at your local animal shelter.
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Whelp, this is the second time I've posted the solution to all of this, and it has been deleted by the moderator. I guess you will have to do without the solution.
In the film Easy Rider, George (Jack Nicholson) said, 'You know, alot of people think they're free. But when they see someone who is actually free, they hate them.'
I would caution neocons here, who blindly denigrate Greens, that your hate is splitting this nation.
If you look at a human from a physiological point of view, we are vastly different from all other carnivores. We are in fact more similar to herbivores in that we don't have hugh canines for ripping meat, nor do we have short intestines like for instance, the ultimate carnivores, felines who are on top of the food chain. Our intestines are long like those of a cow or a horse. This all seems to suggest that humans are by nature herbivores.
I can't believe you said something like that on a discovery channel message board, you would think you would have learned basic biology.
Humans are not herbivores nor are we suited to be herbivores, we are omnivores and perfectly suited to live as omnivores. If humans were not omnivores we would have not evolved from smaller carnivorous mammalia into our current forms. The fact that our canine teeth are not huge is not proof that we are meant to eat vegetable matter it only shows that once we discovered fire and began cooking our food that we no longer needed teeth as large nor huge jaw muscles to tear apart raw meat. The make up of a persons teeth is not universal either, while you may have tiny canines that may not even be pointed, I have large pointed ones. My top canines in fact reach the edge of the opposing gum line beneat them.
You also forget that humans have both short, and long intestines, as well as a vestigle organ that we used to use to digest raw meat, the apendex.
Humans are on top of the food chain, not because we are the strongest, fastest, or have the biggest teeth, but because we are the smartest and most adaptable being in our known universe. Telling a human to eat only vegetables is allagorical to teaching a bear to only eat fruits or berries, eventually the bear will turn around and eat you.
See that's whats wrong with getting your information from obviously biased sources like PETA.
I really hate to see people abuse science.
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This is one of the most ignorant and stupid things I've ever read in my life!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by knilja: I am an avid animal lover..however...people have a bad habit of "humanizing" animals. The comments above about the pigs not being "happy" is an example. We animal lovers have this habit of thinking that animals are just like us. They think like us and emote like us...but science and history and personal experience will tell you they don't. Animals act, react and follow instinct. Period. They don't have emotions. ...yes they seem inhumane...if it were "people" in those pens...but they're not...they are pigs. Thank goodness they can only act and react and don't have emotions. QUOTE]
Raysan-- I completely agree with you-- the only reason I signed up with Discovery was to express my disgust and horror at the cruelty leveled on that innocent little piglet and his mother on this program. I am utterly shocked by the two men standing there after cutting the piglet's tail and teeth and laughing about there actions. We express horror at the torture of human beings. Exactly what makes this different? I could hardly get to sleep. It was disgusting, vile. We have NO right whatsoever to inlfict this kind of cruelty on animals. That little piglet sqealed in horror and pain. What kind of a nation are we?
Originally posted by annsfla: Raysan-- I completely agree with you-- the only reason I signed up with Discovery was to express my disgust and horror at the cruelty leveled on that innocent little piglet and his mother on this program. I am utterly shocked by the two men standing there after cutting the piglet's tail and teeth and laughing about there actions. We express horror at the torture of human beings. Exactly what makes this different? I could hardly get to sleep. It was disgusting, vile. We have NO right whatsoever to inlfict this kind of cruelty on animals. That little piglet sqealed in horror and pain. What kind of a nation are we?
I truely hope this post was just a joke but if not.
Jezzzzzzzzz Nothing agenst you ann or your beliefs but rember pig cow ostrich alagator rat chickens fish /ITS ALLLLL A BUSNIES there not there sitting up all night going how and what can we do tommrow to be crule to these pour littel darlings its about dollers and cents if you stress them they dont gain weight you lose money so i know there not doing anything that is not nessary for the healt of the darling littel things You want to yell talk to animial control ppl who have to go get pigs, dogs, horses, lions, tigers,(yes we had a place here in Idaho that was keeping exotic animals illeagely) that ppl adopt and cant or dont take care of them watch animail planit thats where thers cruielty not the rancher who makes his money at this Witch is worse the farmer or rancher who keeps 1500 head of anaimls to make a living of them or someone who has 10 pigs 15 dogs 30 cats 5 horses andthere all starving Yes animals have rights but take the fight where it needs to be raise money for humanin shelters education of ppl who try and keep or make pets out of everthing rember the rancher is not out to hurt his walot just like the rest of us makes no sence for him to stress them money is always the bottom line pat
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We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and by doing so, fill the slaughter houses daily with screams of pain and fear.
