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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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Am I the only person who believes that, if it took from 12.45 a.m. to just after 2 a.m. to load and launch 20 lifeboats, there would not have been enough time to launch enough lifeboats to save all of the passengers and crew, even if there had been sufficient boats available? There was only about 15 minutes between lowering the last lifeboat and the Titanic sinking at 2.18 a.m.
Somebody should do a full scale experiment to see how long it would have taken to save everybody if the crew had been properly trained and experienced and there was sufficient room in the lifeboats.
I think, at the speed they achieved on the night of the disaster (one boat loaded and launched an average of every 4 minutes), they could not have launched any more than 4 additional boats before the ship sank. This clearly contradicts both inquiries' conclusion that the victims died because there were not enough lifeboats. My conclusion is that the people died because there was not enough time for the inexperienced crew to save everybody.
It would be interesting to see the results of such an experiment, especially as 2012 is the 100th anniversary of the disaster.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-05-09
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A. There was NOT enough lifeboats in the 1st place
B. The passengers and Crew most of them beleived that the ship was unsinkable and thus there was no rush at 1st and thus why so many boats were launched so slowly and not full.
C. back then the launching of a Life Boat took longer because they had to MANUALLY lower the boats. Today;s moderne ships have machanical lowering devices that make launching much faster.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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quote: Originally posted by Myth_Man71:
A. There was NOT enough lifeboats in the 1st place
B. The passengers and Crew most of them beleived that the ship was unsinkable and thus there was no rush at 1st and thus why so many boats were launched so slowly and not full.
C. back then the launching of a Life Boat took longer because they had to MANUALLY lower the boats. Today;s moderne ships have machanical lowering devices that make launching much faster.
Thanks for your response, which is much appreciated. Please note the following to clarify my original posting. (A) I did state that there were not enough lifeboats. Nobody disputes this fact. (B) Yes, you are correct that everyone on the ship did not panic initially, but you did not mention that many of the boats were lowered away not full, because the officers believed that the listing of the ship would cause full boats to catch on the side of the ship and tip the people into the water. Many experts believe that this was a mistaken belief. (C) In 1912 a properly trained and experienced crew could have realised the true seriousness of their situation, especially as Captain Smith had ordered a damage report, which was one of the reasons why it took so long to send the first distress call and start launching the lifeboats. I don't believe they could have started the evacuation much sooner than they did, experienced or not. The issue was that an experienced crew would have known how many people were required to operate the davits, how many people could fit safely in each boat and that it was safe to lower the boats full to their legal capacity. Maximum allowed for the normal lifeboats was 65, but survivors say they couldn't fit that many in on the night. Collapsible A to D were only allowed to carry about 40-45 people, because they were utility boats not meant for use as lifeboats. Lightoller was the last officer into the water as he was trying to launch the last lifeboat (collapsible D). He said he did not have time to prepare it for use, so he simply released it from the davit and a wave washed it overboard. This demostrates how little time they had. The calculation of 16 lifeboats times 65 plus 4 collapsibles times 45 (I know the collapsibles didn't all hold 45 people, but I can't find a definitive number for this right here and now) equals a lifeboat capacity of only 1220, which is, of course inadequate to save all 2200 on board, but I just want to find out how many people could have been saved if the crew had been experienced? Maybe you are right. Maybe it would make no difference for the very valid reasons you gave, but I do things as scientifically as I can. Therefore, I do hope that somebody will, one day, discover how many people could have been saved if there had been enough lifeboats. |
Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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(1) Another myth was that some people thought White Star were trying to win the record for the fastest crossing of the Atlantic. However, Titanic's maximum speed in her sea trials was recorded at 24.75 knots. The holder of the record had an average speed of 27 knots to win it. This means that Titanic was not fast enough, so this myth is busted.
(2) There was a conversation between Bruce Ismay and the chief engineer, but none of the survivors heard what was being said. Bruce Ismay was never asked about this in either of the 2 inquiries into the sinking, so he took the secret with him to his grave. The chief engineer went down with the ship and, therefore, can never tell anyone. Some people think maybe Bruce Ismay was asking about the possibility of arriving in New York ahead of schedule (perhaps to compete with Cunard's more powerful and faster ships with (Cunard's) cheaper fares)? We will never know.
Let me know your opinion about these Titanic myths.
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Senior Member
Registered: 11-22-07
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The movie protrays J. Bruce Ismay incorrectly. He did not ask Captain Smith to increase the speed because he didn't want to inconvenience the passengers by arriving a day early and messing up their hotel and train bookings, and he did not sneak onto an ungarded lifeboat. In fact, he helped sevral passengers onto the lifeboat, and when there were no other passengers nearby, he was ordered into the boat. Originally, the Titanic, Olypia and the Brittania were to have 16 lifeboat stations, equalling 64 lifeboats in total, plus the four collapsable boats, but the White Star Line didn't want the passengers to worry that there were that many lifeboats and they didn't want the view to be obstucted. When the changes were made, the designer stormed out of the office and never designed another ship again.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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Thank you for your very informative response. I will be investigating most of what you said. However, I wish to make the following points:-
(1) Yes, it is quite true that nobody ever said they heard Bruce Ismay ask Captain Smith to increase the ship's speed to arrive a day early. It has been suggested that it was the presence of the icebergs which could have made the captain try to get through the area as fast as possible due to that being the normal procedure for ships at that time. It does seem to us now to be a strange thing to do, but then we do have radar and sonar whereas in 1912 they didn't.
(2) Lightoller and Murdoch were in charge of loading and launching the lifeboats (one officer for each side), but they interpreted the Captain's women and children first order in different ways. That meant that more men were allowed into lifeboats on one side of the ship than the other.
(3) Please be aware that ALL White Star ships had names ending in, "ic" (e.g. Oceanic, Titanic, Olympic, Britannic, Nomadic (a tender for carrying passengers to the ship) and Nordic (another tender). This was a marketing device copied from rivals such as Cunard, which had all ships names ending in, "ia". This was done to identify the company to the potential passengers.
(4) The designer did want 64 lifeboats and did put in 16 davits (cranes to lower the lifeboats) with a capacity to hold 4 boats each, but White Star did not want to give the impression that the ship could sink, so they just installed the minimum 16 required by the out of date British Board of Trade rules. Also, it is true that they only allowed lifeboat drills while the ships were safely in New York Harbour. Their plan to transfer passengers and crew to rescue ships was exposed as inadequate on the fateful night when, 400 miles from land, no other ships were close enough to arrive before the Titanic sank.
The plan was created after the Oceanic disaster where it (Oceanic) collided with another ship 5 miles from New York, so everyone on board was successfully rescued by local boats with no embarrassing loss of life.
The situation on the night Titanic sank was very different being much further away from safety than a mere 5 miles.
(5) The movie was criticised for many historical and factual inaccuracies (the same people made the film about the Britannic, with the same inevitable changes to reality!). E.g. the producers upset Murdoch's family by portraying him as a nervous man. They said he was nothing like that. Nobody knows why he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head before the ship disappeared below the surface, but his gun was found in his hand with no one else anywhere near him on the deck.
I invite everybody who reads this to post a comment on what has been said so far or add new information.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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Titanic's sister ship, Olympic (which was one day's sailing out of New York at the time she received and relayed radio distress calls from Titanic) was quickly equipped with sufficient lifeboats and the watertight bulkheads were extended up to A Deck after the loss of the Titanic. However, I believe that, because the deck was made of wood, simply extending the bulkheads would not have saved the ship. I think the water would still have forced its way through the deck and spilled over the top of the bulkheads with only a delay in sinking. Maybe the ship would have stayed afloat a bit longer, but I can't see how it could have avoided sinking anyway. Some people may say perhaps Carpathia could have arrived in time in these circumstances, but only a reconstruction by somebody can give a definitive answer...
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Junior Member
Registered: 10-23-07
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I have heard this myth before and i think i'll throw in my 2 cents,
1, You are quoting the exact time of the collision of the Titanic as the starting point of launching the lifeboats, as many of the passengers and crew were under the impression of the unsinkable status of the liner they would have first shut the watertight doors then assesed the situation. (even today no liner can launch lifeboats unless the accident is assesed) therefore we cannot be sure of the timing they realised that the titanic will sink and the lifeboats starting to be filled.
2, many passengers would have been asleep at the time of the collison. This would have made the evacuation more complicated for the crew as they would have to wake them, this would have meant less crew on the deck to get the boats ready.
3, as stated before the first class passengers did not initally wish to leave the ship. In the inqueries it was stated that the 1st class passengers felt unsafe in the lifeboats and requested to stay onboard (even as the bow of the ship disappeared passengers thought the ship would still right itself and that them being in the boats was a waste of time)
4, the passengers were released in order of class. by the time the 3rd class passengers were allowed on deck I suspect some may already have died below due to exposure of the freezing water (this is MY personal suspision).
another popular myth is one in which may have saved the titanic from sinking is that, if the titanic had hit the iceberg head on instead of on her side then only the front two watertight bulkheads would have been breached. her bulk would have balanced out the water and she would have made it to new york with only a repair bill to her name.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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Thank you for your reply. It is worth nearer $1,000,000 than 2 cents, because the more people who give their opinions, the closer we may be to solving at least some of the many Titanic myths. I hope my response to each of your points can help everyone to understand my logic.
(1) I am not saying the crew would have had the full 1 hour 38 minutes to load and launch lifeboats. I just mean that this was the maximum time they had available to them, so could they really have loaded and launched enough lifeboats to save everybody on board? Who knows? It is an experiment that is absolutely essential to be done in order to answer that mystery. We do know survivors stated that the first lifeboat was launched at about 12.45 a.m. Nobody I am aware of disputes that. The Captain's Log and the Communications Log were both saved, so many of the timings of events were recorded in them. I think it WAS the need to assess the damage that delayed the first distress call until 12.15 a.m., but Captain Smith was told by the designer of the ship that she was definitely going to sink, so he would have been under no illusion about the seriousness of the situation. He knew there were nowhere near enough lifeboats to save everyone and that Carpathia would not arrive in time. He would have been foolish not to tell his officers. His last orders to them were, "Be British", and, "Every man for himself". He then turned towards the wheelhouse. That was the last confirmed sighting of him.
(2) Yes, this is a very valid point, especially as the ship did not have a public address system (as in many modern ships), but please be aware that there were 894 crew and only 20 lifeboats. How many crew do you think would be needed to launch all 20 boats simultaneously? Certainly not all 894! I do believe that waking the passengers did cause a considerable delay, but I am not sure about how many crew were occupied with launching the boats, so I don't know if any time could have been saved by redeploying them. However, I do know uncovering a lifeboat and filling it would not take much time. Only lowering the boats was extremely slow and difficult. This leaves the initial assumption that the ship wasn't going to sink as the most likely reason for the slow start to the evacuation. Survivors said that panic only started when the remaining people on board realised that the last lifeboat (Collapsible D) had gone.
(3) Yes I fully agree with this point. I have nothing to add (which, as you must have realised by now, is unusual for me!).
(4) Survivors said there were locked gates and they were only allowed onto the boat deck in order of their class, but White Star denied that. One of the inquiries accepted that there were no barriers, but they did say that the Second Class and Steerage Class (Third Class, if anyone needs an British class system translation!) passengers had a more complicated route to the boat deck than the First Class passengers.
Yes, it is assumed that a number of passengers died in the initial collision, because of the position of the buckled parts of the side of the ship (which is how the water entered the ship. There was definitely no 300 feet long gash. Only 6 one foot long slits were found below the water line, although not all of the ship was accessible at that time, so I don't know what other damage may have been found since. However, it would explain why the ship lasted as long as it did.
Yes, I think people did die before they managed to get on deck, especially as no one in the engine room survived, probably due to them staying at their post until the very last minute and only a small number of crew escaping when one of the bulkheads gave way in another part of the ship.
(5) Just to answer your last point, I can tell you that a team of researchers and experts, commissioned by a tv broadcaster, did try a test with a model hitting an iceberg head on. Despite extensive damage to the bow, the model stayed afloat (in Mythbusters language, I can say that myth is, "CONFIRMED"!). It is known that the actual impact was so slight that nobody thought the ship had hit an iceberg. This accounts for the equally minimal damage found, so it is very likely that a head on collision would have probably prevented the ship from sinking. The same team did another experiment to deal with another Titanic myth. Watch this space for an update on this later!
In the meantime, please keep reading this topic. Any contributions are very welcome!
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-16-09
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just some thought of my own theory and stuff that i remember (checking on-line for titanic due to my curiosity)
i remember there one TV program that show how the titanic was sank.i think is "seconds from disaster". i think it might be possible to see through some problem with the fact and myth.
i think that for the captain himself, he might be thinking of the fact that he want to save as many other as he can, if he can't do it, he might choose to left behind, it might be his own belief that the captain is always the last to left the ship, if not, he might be trying to see whether he can do what he can do save many other.
considering the sinking, it was hit on with a ice-berg, so we can say that water was gushing in at a fast rate, so it is possible that many had died in the ship before they get to the desk.
it might be possible that at that time, many rich people think of their safety and pay more just to save their neck, so the company might shut their lips. whether that true or not, we might never know.
whether we know that there was an ice-berg, we can say that the water was freezing cold, considered that it was hit at night, so it meant that the water might be way colder, we know that despite having an iceberg in the ocean, the day and night play a part too, if in day, the water is just cold due to the heat from the above(Sun), but night is just cold, adding to the freezing water, those people who dare to jump into the water will just freezing cold to death.
another thing is that when those who jump into the water, although it is say the vortex is not strong enough to take them sink into the water, the vortex current, might create wave, enough to cause those swimmer to go in and out of the water, and i do believe that it hard to hold one breath in cold water.
although i believe that it is sometime better to let one myth be unsolved than to solve it, but i will just say my though when i can.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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Another Titanic Myth is that, when the wreck site was found, it was discovered that the engine controls on the bridge were set differently from the engine controls in the Engine Room. One was set to, "Stop". The other was set to, "Slow Astern". Did Captain Smith try to pull his ship away from the iceberg after the collision? Did he think that the damaged ship could stay afloat and carry on it's voyage to New York? Did someone else try to do some plan of their own to save the ship? We'll never know - unless you have any ideas about this that I don't know about! Please let us all know!
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Senior Member
Registered: 01-31-08
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I have doubts that they managed to get all the way down to the engine room.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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I didn't say it was the the people who found the wreck that discovered this discrepancy about the engine controls. There have been many dives down to survey the wreck. It could have been any of them. I will try to find out who said it, as soon as possible. Perhaps someone can tell us? I obtained the information from a television programme. It is not my own opinion.
Thank you for your contribution. I started this discussion topic precisely because many things have been said about this disaster, but we don't really know which are true or not true. Please keep reading this topic. I would love to hear from others about my postings!
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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Does anyone know if the allegation about a man who disguised himself as a woman to get into a lifeboat is true or false?
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Senior Member
Registered: 10-05-08
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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I have found no evidence to support this story, so I have to say it is probably not true. The problem is that there are so many stories about the Titanic that it may always have unresolved mysteries surrounding it.
Can anyone tell us of any evidence to confirm or disprove it? If it was true, did someone put a name to the man? If it was false, did anybody admit to inventing it?
Sometimes, people do say they were responsible for creating fictional stories, which they had, at first, claimed were true. I hope we can resolve such stories one way or the other. Seems a shame to leave them unresolved...
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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One of the crew on upturned collapsible D claimed that he saw a man swimming towards the boat. He recognised the man as Captain Smith. The crewman told the Captain that there was no room on the boat. The man in the water is alleged to have said, "Righto boys. Good luck!" Then the man turned away, swam into the darkness and was never seen again.
Despite there being about 30 men on the boat, none of the others reported this sighting, so, as far as I know, it remains unconfirmed. Unless you know different!
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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quote: Originally posted by Subductionzone:
I have doubts that they managed to get all the way down to the engine room.
I think the engine room controls and the bridge engine controls were found in the debris field, not inside the ship. Please remember that there was evidence from the survivors and the wreck site that there had been an explosion in the stern as the ship broke up and slid below the surface. I believe this would have been sufficient to deposit the contents of the engine room and/or the bridge outside the ship on the seabed. I hope this information is helpful, but it is not guaranteed to be 100% accurate at this time, so you could still be right! |
Senior Member
Registered: 02-07-09
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quote: Originally posted by Warlike Poet:
Thank you for your reply. It is worth nearer $1,000,000 than 2 cents, because the more people who give their opinions, the closer we may be to solving at least some of the many Titanic myths. I hope my response to each of your points can help everyone to understand my logic.
(1) I am not saying the crew would have had the full 1 hour 38 minutes to load and launch lifeboats. I just mean that this was the maximum time they had available to them, so could they really have loaded and launched enough lifeboats to save everybody on board? Who knows? It is an experiment that is absolutely essential to be done in order to answer that mystery. We do know survivors stated that the first lifeboat was launched at about 12.45 a.m. Nobody I am aware of disputes that. The Captain's Log and the Communications Log were both saved, so many of the timings of events were recorded in them. I think it WAS the need to assess the damage that delayed the first distress call until 12.15 a.m., but Captain Smith was told by the designer of the ship that she was definitely going to sink, so he would have been under no illusion about the seriousness of the situation. He knew there were nowhere near enough lifeboats to save everyone and that Carpathia would not arrive in time. He would have been foolish not to tell his officers. His last orders to them were, "Be British", and, "Every man for himself". He then turned towards the wheelhouse. That was the last confirmed sighting of him.
(2) Yes, this is a very valid point, especially as the ship did not have a public address system (as in many modern ships), but please be aware that there were 894 crew and only 20 lifeboats. How many crew do you think would be needed to launch all 20 boats simultaneously? Certainly not all 894! I do believe that waking the passengers did cause a considerable delay, but I am not sure about how many crew were occupied with launching the boats, so I don't know if any time could have been saved by redeploying them. However, I do know uncovering a lifeboat and filling it would not take much time. Only lowering the boats was extremely slow and difficult. This leaves the initial assumption that the ship wasn't going to sink as the most likely reason for the slow start to the evacuation. Survivors said that panic only started when the remaining people on board realised that the last lifeboat (Collapsible D) had gone.
(3) Yes I fully agree with this point. I have nothing to add (which, as you must have realised by now, is unusual for me!).
(4) Survivors said there were locked gates and they were only allowed onto the boat deck in order of their class, but White Star denied that. One of the inquiries accepted that there were no barriers, but they did say that the Second Class and Steerage Class (Third Class, if anyone needs an British class system translation!) passengers had a more complicated route to the boat deck than the First Class passengers.
Yes, it is assumed that a number of passengers died in the initial collision, because of the position of the buckled parts of the side of the ship (which is how the water entered the ship. There was definitely no 300 feet long gash. Only 6 one foot long slits were found below the water line, although not all of the ship was accessible at that time, so I don't know what other damage may have been found since. However, it would explain why the ship lasted as long as it did.
Yes, I think people did die before they managed to get on deck, especially as no one in the engine room survived, probably due to them staying at their post until the very last minute and only a small number of crew escaping when one of the bulkheads gave way in another part of the ship.
(5) Just to answer your last point, I can tell you that a team of researchers and experts, commissioned by a tv broadcaster, did try a test with a model hitting an iceberg head on. Despite extensive damage to the bow, the model stayed afloat (in Mythbusters language, I can say that myth is, "CONFIRMED"!). It is known that the actual impact was so slight that nobody thought the ship had hit an iceberg. This accounts for the equally minimal damage found, so it is very likely that a head on collision would have probably prevented the ship from sinking. The same team did another experiment to deal with another Titanic myth. Watch this space for an update on this later!
In the meantime, please keep reading this topic. Any contributions are very welcome!
I have found a record of S.S. Birma's communications log, which states that the first distress call was received from MGY (Titanic's callsign) at 11.45p.m. This proves my original statement in point (1) of my reply (12.15 a.m.) was incorrect. |
Senior Member
Registered: 11-22-07
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Stop bumping your posts. Of the 18 posts, only 6 are from other people; the rest are from you. And don't rate your own thread.
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