When I was in high school, me and my friends always had heated discussions. One which would always arise was whether owning a shotgun is better than a rifle in battle. Normally that discussion would turn into brawls if not careful.

Being a shotgun lover - Shotguns to me were the ideal thing for any situation in a game. But certain situation like the sniping crow(in more simple terms a sniper that would position were it would have one way to reach plus clear visual of the target) That can of battle was suppose to be losing one when only equip with shotgun but out of the 6 battles 3 were in my favor and 3 were in the sniper's favor, well this was a game(halo 2). Although shotguns were said to be the close quarters combat weapon which would win if the enemy was equipped with only a rifle.

For those who don't know what a shotgun looks like this is a 12 gauge http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gun...07/11/fn-shotgun.jpg

and also a normal rifle would be this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...le_early_version.jpg

Question: Which would you use given the circumstances shotgun or a rifle, in a close quarters combat(in a real battle)

2. Does a shotgun have more power than a rifle at close range or vice-versa?

3. after two feat. would the shotgun still be affective against the rifle user

somehow I get the idea that many of us know more about what shotguns and rifles look like than you do. from WWII to Vietnam and Korea, the shotgun was a preferred close quarters weapon for many soldiers. the biggest advantage of a shotgun is that at close range, precise aim is unnecessary. shooting at an enemy with number 00 buckshot is roughly equivalent to shooting him 3 or 4 times with a .38 caliber pistol. on the other hand, past 50-75 feet, shooting at the enemy with the same shotgun is like shooting him with the pistol with a bent barrel. you'll be doing well, to hit him once. past that, if you hit him at all, it's pure luck.

with a rifle, up to a thousand yards, is fair game, but you have to take the time to aim.

I can imagine Purdey's reply if they were asked to make a shotgun like that.

And if that is a 'normal' rifle, what was the pre '64 Winchester Model 70?

rifles are not really my strong point(as in they don't interest me) but a normal rifle would be not of sniper class and not Machine gun/rifle am not sure exactly what's the name of that model but i know it exist. The machine gun rifle class is normal hand out in the army so it's not surprising there(don't know the name of the model itself)

Well like i said i not really into rifles so i don't literally know any normal rifle but what if you were go up against all different types of rifles in close quarters situation against the classes of shotgun assuming it has more than 3( double barrel,8 gauge, 12 gauge well i know of the automatic shotgun not sure if its real though still). Anyways which class would perform better in the close quarters situation.

The "combat" shotgun has it's place in close-range fighting. They are in everyday use in the middle East at present.
In addition to combat, the 12-gauge "door breaching" rounds are very useful.

However, as noted above, the weapon is not particularly useful at ranges over 50 yards or so.
Ammunition capacity is limited, and the ammunition is bulky as well; hard for a soldier to carry lots.
Since the weapons don't normally feed from magazines, rapid reloading is a problem as well.

It's a specialty weapon that has it's place, but it isn't about to supplant the "battle rifle" for general military use.

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a normal rifle would be not of sniper class and not Machine gun/rifle am not sure exactly what's the name of that model but i know it exist.

There is no such thing as a 'sniper-class' rifle. A sniper is a soldier trained for accurate long-range shooting. Any weapon he is issued or using is automatically a snipers weapon.

'Rifles' can fall into different groupings. I'm going to try and list some of them - although I expect that those military and ex-military personal who frequent the boards amongst others will probably correct me where/if I get anything wrong.

Sniper-rifle; Any rifle carried by a sniper. Such weapons have traditionaly been bolt action, single shot weapons that lack automatic settings. Although Semi-sutomatic rifles are used as well.
Most issued sniper weapons in the military are also used by SWAT teams, and either available to or slightly modified versions of civilian hunting rifles.

'Battle-rifle'; A rifle issued to troops for front line combat. These were single shot weapons, usually bolt-action, akin to civilian hunting rifles - with some becoming available for civilian use. Battle-rifles are no longer issued to troops as a whole. However many of them were reissued to snipers, with little more than the addition of an optical sight.
Examples of a Battle-rifle include the British Enfield rifle (Bolt action) and the American M1 Garrand (Semi-automatic).

Assault-rifle; A rifle that uses a intermediate powered round - that is something between between a full powered rifle round and that of a pistol. Assault rifles are almost always capable of both single and full automatic rates of fire. (The British and Candians had the L1A1 SLR, which was a semi-automatic rifle. However the basic design was capable of full automatic fire - the British and Canadians simply removed this setting from their version of the weapon).
Examples; M16, AK 47, SA-80.

Machine gun; A fully automatic weapon that fires rifle ammunition at a high rate of fire, and usually requires two soldiers to opperate. (One to fire the weapon, another to reload - although one person can do both). While they use rifle ammunition (that is full powered rounds) they may or may not use the same size ammunition as the rifles issued to the troops. The American .50 cal machine gun is an example of a heavy machine gun that uses a significantly larger round than used in rifles. The British .303 machine gun is an example of a machine gun that used the exact same round as the rifles of the period.

Squad assault/support weapon; Basically an assault rifle with a higher rate of fire and thicker barrel. These weapons (usually) take the exact same round as the rifles they are used alongside. They are intended to be small enough to be used much as the rifles are, while allowing for fire-support to a unit in place of a machine-gun. This classification is inexact, since this is more about what the weapon is being used for rather than a specific design. The M-60, for example, could be classified both as a machine-gun and as a SAW.


Shot-guns and sub-machine guns are mission specific weapons - that is only issued to troops when it is felt they are needed. Both are short ranged weapons firing low velocity rounds. Both are considered good weapons for close range combat - that is fighting inside buildings - with shotguns being ideal for breaching doors.
However in combat at longer ranges both weapons are only slightly better than using a pistol - and suffer badly if you are facing troops wearing body armour.

SWAT teams use sub-machine guns and shotguns because they are ideal for house to house fighting. Above all the rounds from these weapons are less likely to pass through a hostile and hit a hostage. However, if they expect combat at longer ranges or if they suspect/know that the bad guys have body armour they will switch to assault-rifles (or at least carbines, which are the same thing but shorter).

Indeed, Cyber...

In theory even a common variety Kraeg-Joergensen or Lee Enfield can be used as a sniper-rifle..

Nice summary but probably lost on the OP. He's probably never seen or touched a real firearm and is only familiar with what's in video games.

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Originally posted by buttonsdad:
Nice summary but probably lost on the OP. He's probably never seen or touched a real firearm and is only familiar with what's in video games.

Don't confused me with some little kid. i have a seen shotgun(couldn't get to touch it cause regulations)I'm 19 yrs old and i have always wanted a shotgun but right now i can't own right now(because anti-gun threat don't ask).
all the models cyber listed i know every one of them, in my first post I said "I know the guns but not the name"(if it was not said my apologizes). Not one of you has answered the question I posted, instead you criticize my gun-knowledge.
Then for those who did not realize that a question was asked here is the question again.

"Which gun out of a shotgun or rifle would be better in close quarters combat"?

My friends opinion were a rifle mine were shotgun or basically for shotgun 23% rifle 77% just a raw estimate.

My choice would be a pump action 12 gauge full choke firing OO buckshot. For shots beyond 30 yards I'd switch to slugs - any type will do as long as it's OK for choke.

That would suffice for shots up to 75 yards, beyond that distance I'd want a rifle. A drilling in 12 + 12 + 9.3mm would do if only one gun is allowed.

Shotguns come in various forms; single barrel, double side by side, double over and under, pump, semi-auto and revolver. Gauges run from 4 down to 28, there are a few in between but they're rare, plus the .410, 9mm and .22.

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Originally posted by CitizenGKar:
Indeed, Cyber...

In theory even a common variety Kraeg-Joergensen or Lee Enfield can be used as a sniper-rifle..

The Lee-Enfield was used as a sniper-weapon when fitted with a scope. In fact the basic rifle was quite capable of hitting targets at 1000 yards over open sights in the hands of competition shooters in the early/mid 1980's.

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"Which gun out of a shotgun or rifle would be better in close quarters combat"?

It depends in context.

During WW1 it was discovered that in close combat in the trenches shotguns were highly effective. That is, in fact, the reason why shotguns are still part of the armament of most armies - and also why there is/was a shotgun attachment for the M-16.

However in practice shotguns have a number of drawbacks - low rate of fire and limited number of shots before reloading. (8 rounds is as most as most shotguns take). Plus unless you are using solid slugs your shots will scatter with range - which is not a good thing if you don't want to hit hostages.

In practice shotguns are used as support weapons. If you look at SWAT teams or special forces (that is groups who can pick what weapons to take on missions) they will usually have only one shotgun in a unit with everyone else being armed with sub-machine guns or assault rifles/carbines.
If they expect to be engaging multiple hostiles, or to get involved in sustained fighting, then they might well leave the shotguns in the van.

The question is, as I said, one of context. Shotguns are probably the best firearm for breaching doors - as MB showed a deer-slug will easily remove the lock from most doors. However their limitations in range and number of shots makes then unsuitable for serious fighting. And in hostage situations the accuracy of the rifle makes it a better weapon. (Or at least sub-machine guns. Which can be viewed as an assault rifle that fires pistol ammunition).

Basically there is no point having a weapon that can take someone out in one shot if the weapon is unlikely to be able to hit someone in the first place. Nor is there much point in having a weapon that will scatter shot around a room if there is someone inside you are trying to save.

define close combat. If you mean 2 blokes shooting at each other 10 feet apart, both weapon will have the ability to kill the other (in real life you don't need 20 bullet to kill someone, weither its a shotgun or a rifle).

close quarters combat is defined as when the enemy or target is in field of vision.<---that could be one of the answer's. The other definition could be that they are in close proximity for example if your able to reach out and touch the opponent/person then that is considered close quarters if you two are fighting then you add combat to the close quarters. Like i said be4 i know of no set explanation so if u really want a good explanation ask a soldier.

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close quarters combat is defined as when the enemy or target is in field of vision.<---that could be one of the answer's.

Close combat is a loose term that doesn't appear to indicate a specific range. However, given that the AK 47 was specifically designed for use in close combat. Then we can take the range to be 300 metres or less. (This was the range of most of the battles fought on the Eastern front in WW2 - and the range the AK 47 was really designed for).

I'd classify 'close combat' to be the range at which aimed shots over open sights are possible (and practical) for the average trooper. Beyond this range a trooper will usually require some form of aid to aiming even if his weapon is more than capable of being effective at those ranges.

Based on this a rifle wins hands down - Shotguns have an effective range of about 60 metres. Rifles at least 300-500 metres on average.

(Sub-machine guns are effective at ranges between 50-100 metres).

If you are fighting inside a building then the range limitations for a shotgun are minor - few buildings have rooms larger than 60 metres in length. Get outside the building and onto a street and your in trouble - someone with a rifle can stand a block away and shoot you without fear of you being able to do anything to him in return.

"In the field of vision" could be mean a thousand yards away, depending on individual eyesight.

In the British Army close quarters used to mean 'within bayonet reach', in other words virtually hand to hand.

I doubt if any definite distance can be given, ten feet is too close if your attacker has a knife and you are unarmed, and fifty yards is close if both are armed with pistols they can use accurately.

Everyone needs to chill out!!! If you are in a close combat situation, the shotgun will be your best weapon. Close combat is what i determine as in a residential house. Anything under #3shot will take out a human. Remember, a shotgun is also known as a "splatter-gun" or a "streetsweeper". A shotgun is, and will alyways be close quarters weapon. Anything over 20 yards, A rifle (even a .22) will be more effective( in the hands of a practiced proffesional). All in all, a shotgun is a weapon in which you don't need to aim but only to point.

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Anything under #3shot will take out a human.

Assuming that they are not wearing body armour. In which case while you move on, thinking that they are dead, they will get back up and unload their entire clip into your back.


For the record; If I cite examples, or going into detail (as I did in my first post here) it is because I don't assume that the person I'm replying to - or for that matter anyone else reading the thread - is going to instantly understand when I mean. I'd rather tell them things they already know, that confuse them (meaning other readers not just the OP) by assuming they do know from the start.

In the above case giving examples of specific types of firearms would also allow someone to go look at the capabilities of those firearms so they can compare them. (Although I have a post pending where I did that)

Nothing to do with thinking of anyone as an idiot. Rather understanding that my communication skills may not be up to fully explaining what I intended to convey if I keep things too short.

Heck, I can confuse myself easily enough....

Very heated discussion here. From what I have read it all depends on the range be4 the myth can be tested. Since its close quarters, how close do have to be your opponent/enemy before it is considered close quarters combat.

Given that the maximum effective range of a combat shotgun is between 40 and 60 metres. 'Close combat' - meaning effective practical range - with such weapons is probably between 20-30 metres.

Anything below around five metres range could probably be considered hand-to-hand range. (And would be typical of most indoors fighting ranges, or at least those in rooms - corridors would be a slightly different matter).
At this kind of range the rifle starts to get a major advantage, since they have bayonets and shotguns don't.

But again, the choice of weapon relies on the conditions. If you expect sustained combat shotguns are not a weapon you want to rely on because of their limited ammunition and long reloading time compared to rifles. Short sudden assaults are better for shotguns, as limited ammunition is not usually a factor.
Even so, SWAT teams rarely issue shotguns to more than one person in a squad. This should be enough to tell you that as powerful and useful as a shotgun might be in close quarters. They are not weapons you really want to rely on alone in combat.

quote:

Originally posted by cybermortis:
Given that the maximum effective range of a combat shotgun is between 40 and 60 metres. 'Close combat' - meaning effective practical range - with such weapons is probably between 20-30 metres.

Anything below around five metres range could probably be considered hand-to-hand range. (And would be typical of most indoors fighting ranges, or at least those in rooms - corridors would be a slightly different matter).
At this kind of range the rifle starts to get a major advantage, since they have bayonets and shotguns don't.

But again, the choice of weapon relies on the conditions. If you expect sustained combat shotguns are not a weapon you want to rely on because of their limited ammunition and long reloading time compared to rifles. Short sudden assaults are better for shotguns, as limited ammunition is not usually a factor.
Even so, SWAT teams rarely issue shotguns to more than one person in a squad. This should be enough to tell you that as powerful and useful as a shotgun might be in close quarters. They are not weapons you really want to rely on alone in combat.

thanks cyber your really knowledgeable about these things. Can i ask one more question going back to the original question " which weapon(shotgun/rifle) better to use in a close quarters combat. Although there are alot things which hinder this question but could you give me an estimate/guess.