Is there anyone here that consider it correct to call the native tribe people savages? They can't read, fight with sticks, and eat cow's blood! Does this make them savages? We are having a big debate about this subject on www.blackvoices.com, their entertainment forums. The thread is called Discovery Show's Going Tribal.
Also, is discovery paying the tribe for filming them like they are paying the host? Is this exploitation for entertainment?
I will answer your questions. #1-NO "Savage" is a term that was used by social evolutionists around the 1880s to refer to indigenous peoples in places like Africa, Australia, and South America. A cursory perusal of these writings outlines the basic premise that culture develops/evolves uniformly and progressively. This creates a heirarchy of cultures, with White Europeans being at the pinacle. These terms are evocative of racist colonialism and tend to reinforce current bias against, and in extreme cases injustices toward indigenous peoples. I don't mean to be jumping down your throat here, and am certainly not trying to imply racism. But I think its very important to be careful what labels are ascribed to people. They can be more damaging that one realizes. (if you want more info, here's a great link: http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/Faculty/murphy/evol.htm)
and #2-YES I would argue that this is exploitation, payment or not. I would certainly hope (and assume) that the groups are receiving compensation (though I'm sure it is not anywhere near the levels of profit the network will make). Of course its a tricky issue, as influx of capitol can lead to some nasty outcomes in certain cases. Everything gets so complicated when drastic power assymetries exist.
Thanks for your opinion. I just think that these cultures need to evolve. Sooner or later someone with more culture and with better weapons than sticks is going to take their land and sooner or later this tribe will have to deal with famine as they lose animals and food. We are only being polite to them if we encourage them to remain the way they are. This tribe is in ethiopia, one of the poorest country's on earth. All of these tribes covered on the show need to be civilized and taught modern ways and customs so that they will survive for the next hundred years. I am sick and tired of seeing Africa suffer and be expploited, but if they insist on living like cave man who can blame the civilized man for exploiting them?
So, by your logic, if we continue to live outside of the Koran's strict rules, who can blame terrorists for bombing us? (I'm going to hear about this one...)
I do not consider them savages, I consider them native people. By no means do I think that these people on the show are savage. You're thinking is dated-1800s dated. Let me think back to the 1800s America....oh yes the War between the United States and Native Americans-called by some savages-who all they wanted was to live their lives like their ancestors before them, to practice their religion, and to be basically left alone. Sound familiar? Native Americans were forced to abandon their old way of life, forced to live on reservations, forced to abandon their language, culture, their traditional names, all for the sake of progress. Is that what you want? I sure don't.
[quote]haynes-wallace[/quote] You don't make any sense. I never said terrorist are justified in bombing us, although you could make such an arguement in ANOTHER thread. This is not the time to change subjects.
[quote]ixchel77[/quote] Your disgusted with the question I asked, and I am disgusted by the show's exploitation of "native people's."
You guys like to see people of color naked, ignorant, and primitive, living like animals in the forest. I don't.
You guys like to see tribes like the suri surviving day to day in ethiopia, one of the poorest countries on earth. A place where the infant mortality rate is 95 deaths for every thousand babies that are born. While in "civilized America" the infant moratlity rate is 6 deaths per thousand. For the sake of their babies, they need to civilize themselves. But you don't care about that need, you just care about having some entertainment.
Ethiopia, Where the unemployment rate is over 50%. Why don't you guys care about changing that? No, you care about me using PC language in desribing them. Prince don't call them savages, JUST TREAT them like savages like we do!
Where Africa is the richest continent on earth with natural resources, yet the poorest in the world. I dare to ask the question WHY?
They are poor because they are ignorant, in need of civilizing education. They need to be brought up to date, and to join the human family as we move forward.
You guys just want something strange on TV to watch before you go to work or school. Your content with people of color being inferior to you. I want my people to surpass you in science, and technology.
How close is that tribe to suffering a famine like others have? When you look at all people suffering from famine, they tend to be from tribes like that who still live by an outdated lifestyle.
Their eating maggots, while your eating Filet Mignon. You like that. They use sticks to fight, we use fighter jets, and tanks. You like that. They have nothing to defend against having their land taken but sticks. You like that. I don't.
They need to quit being savages and wake up before they end up on some european christian network commercial begging the civilized people for food and money. They are savages, and beggers, and you guys may not call them that but you treat them that way.
That is my whole point, FOR SURVIVAL they need to civilize themselves, and join the world like most people have done.
Lastly, tell me why is it this white guy on the show does not have a white tribe living like savages to "camp" with? Are there any savages left in Europe? No, and I have a problem with that fact. Why are people of color the only primitive aboriginals left on earth?
You like that because to you it is all about having a exotic place to vacation and for me it is about saving a people from themselves.
They have no future living like animals. You like that. I don't.
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Now they have this white guy eating maggots, and invesrting his penis. THis show is crazy. I would never do this. They just said that this tribe sits on land rich in gold and copper, and other resources. I feel sorry for them. How will they protect themselves?
Plus he just said they are cannibals! This is crazy.
first of all, you do not know me, so please stop saying "you like" or "you think." because what you are saying is totally false. i have degrees in sociology and anthropology and am an avid traveler. i do not get all of my information about the world from tv and propoganda. i do not feel that any group of people on this earth is inferior to another... history, with its ugly wars, imperialism, and disease has unfortunately left the world and its people in the situations they are in today... if you are really curious as to why certain people in the world are more "civilzed" as you put it, (although i disagree totally with your idea of what is "civilized" and what is "savage"), read books by Jared Diamond... or books by other reputable historians and anthropologists. remember that "going tribal" is not an example of valid anthropological research... it's purpose is solely enterainment... i totally agree that everyone should have the best quality of life possible, free from war, famine, disease, and oppression... i donate money to reputable charities and when i travel, i support local communities, not mega-corporations... if a person in eithiopia drinks animal blood, and it is a practice that is ingrained in their culture, why would it be beneficial to them for an outsider to come in and tell them, "no, you can't do that, but here are some fighter planes so you don't have to fight with sticks anymore... you need to be more civllized?" "industrialized" nations need to support relief projects in poor communities that will provide food, education, and sustainable practices while respecting and maintaining their cultural practices and they need to stop bullying these people around and making them feel inferior... no one should eat bugs merely because they have nothing else to eat... but many cultures eat things that are taboo by our cultural standards by choice... my point is that everyone has their own opinion of what is appropriate and what is not... it is necessary for everyone to live sustainably and to promote practices that end human suffering throughout the world, but it is wrong to impose your values or belief system on other cultures because that is arrogant and ignorant. in the end it is all about respect. you would feel disrespected if a hinduist told you that you were a savage because you eat steak.
PrinceA- I find it interesting that you assert people responding to your question enjoy watching indigenous peoples because they are less "advanced", at least in your definition. If you take a quick look at the trend of posts by people weighing in, you will find that they overwhelmingly see the show as negative, and reproducing racist stereotypes, which I imagine you dislike as well.
to address "You don't make any sense. I never said terrorist are justified in bombing us, although you could make such an arguement in ANOTHER thread. This is not the time to change subjects." I was not trying to change subjects, I was using metaphor to illustrate the ignorance of the statement "if they insist on living like cave man who can blame the civilized man for exploiting them?" To take another approach, this is like saying, "if young women insist on dressing provocatively, who can blame men for taking sexual advantage of them?" I realize these are harsh statements, but this is purposeful, as they are intended to illustrate the indelacacy of your own original statement.
Hopefully, friends here? If I want a troll attack, I merely need to stay on the ABC DH board. This board started out with intelligent, rational, thinking people with the desire to share viewpoints. I am already sick of this finger pointing and nah nah nahnah. Watch the show. Post a viewpoint. Read other's viewpoints. Reply with a respectful response.
This is an interesting topic to debate about and in my opinion I don't think they are savages. I see them as people like you and me we are all human beings. The Suri seem very proud of their culture and their way of life and I don't think it is up to us to change that. I'm sure they would think that our way of life is different and strange. I like Going Tribal and don't see it as being exploitation. I see it as showing us that there are many different cultures in the world besides our own and we should respect and try and understand each one.
Interesting with all the pent up feelings. I found the tribes very interesting especially as it was explained about why they WERE cannibals...it seemed to be based all on paranoia and not even fact. They seem to assume an evil man or some variation of, and then kill him. The most interesting part was that they feel that eating the stomach, brain and other select parts removes the evil from their presence and environment. We, of course, seem to see it as a horror as opposed to, what they seem to believe is a sort of exorcism.
An additional comment regarding the flying anger. Has our society become so entrenched in emotion that we are unable to eloquently verse our feelings with level emotion. It seems that we could learn a few things from these tribes in distant lands...they welcomed Bruce after a small offering, opened their home and...men hugged men and cried as he left...that was very impressive for such a "savage" group. I found them warm with very different daily routines and needs, but who am I to judge...when we reach the end who cares what you had to eat at the end of the day!
Why should they be considered savages simply because they live in such a way that is best suited to their environment? Why would it be more civilized for them to move from their homes and into large cities and begin life in a currency-based economy, use machines, and settle down in a nuclear family situation?
People should not be judged in comparison to people of other cultures; it is simply making an unfair and poorly-based evalution. Many of these tribal peoples live into old age without the benefits of western medicine, nor the detriments of artery-clogging foods. On top of it all, a subsistence lifestyle, with much time left for rest and working only enough to get what one needs, are usually quite similar to what people in western cultures describe as their ideal (say, once they retire).
Are these people savage because they do seemingly bizarre things? Blood sausage is a traditional British food, so why is it so abhorrent when other peoples consume blood? Are they savage because they kill their enemies? Any country with an army, or any state with a death penalty does the same thing. Take a look at your own familiar culture with different criteria before accusing other people of being so terrible due to their differences.
My question is what has living in an industrialied society gotten us? We live a nuclear lifestyle, rife with stress and sickness because we have lost touch with the rites of passage that keep us a community. The tribal lifestyle is so much more than just living in huts and eating maggots.
Yes we have a lower infant mortality rate, but is that really better? Do our infants have a better quality of life? We are *saving* infants at earlier and earlier gestational ages, but they are bound for a lifetime of complications. Our industrialized society had left us out of touch with the things that make us mortal; birth, life, family and death. If we took a more *tribal* approach to birth, life and death we would have fewer or our elders living out thier last years alone in nursing homes, less child abuse, less family dysfunction, less alchoholism and drug abuse, less depression and mental illness. This is the price we pay for moving away from our cultural traditions.
The people who compose the tribes that Bruce visits are not savages. They are people just like us. Like the African shaman said in one of the episodes, “you have one nose, I have one nose, you have one hand and I have one hand; we are all one.” As to Haynes-Wallace comment in question two, I would like to say that the tribes are not being exploited even if they do or do not get compensation. By their participation on the show, we are being exposed to way of life, which is very different from ours, and I agree with Zugthemegasaurus that these people should not change their way of life for ours. They should stay how they are and enjoy the freedoms, which we do not have.
I am rather surprised by some of the ethnocentrism I see posted here.Princeakbar, can you try not using your culture as a yardstick for "judging"(i should say learning from) these cultues? You may not understand some of the ways these tribes or groups of people live,but does that mean you have changed reality? I am in awe of many of these people. They still have a connection to Mother earth that many of us (not all) have lost through living in cities and walking on pavement. Who is to say that all our technology makes us better or that they need to live as we do? Maybe we should take a lesson from them! They are still connected to many things we have forgotten as a collective group of people. I envy Bruce and his crew and would love to experience some of the wonders that he has.As for savages--no way! I think all the devestion "we" as "civilized" people have wroght(as Godless and self centered children) is more savage then anything I could ever imagine. Hey,just my opinion. I really like this show as I was tiring of all the insanity that was and is being shown on T.V. It is a refreshing change of pace.
I think the show and it's impact on the different tribes represented as well as us 'civilized' folk is being misinterpreted by some here.
Incidently there is a plethora of literature out there of similar westerners 'going tribal' so to speak. Of course this is not new. Nor will it end until these tribes are eventually 'civilized'. It will happen. And some of these people seem to want it to happen. Personally I hate to see it end. But I have my piano, running water and electricity. So that's easy for me to say. It seems to me that even if a person has not been exposed to the luxuries of life, once they are introduced there is no turning back.
I think the debate here is interesting. As an American Indian I am slightly offended by the notion of calling less privilaged people 'Savages'. I understand the ignorance of using this insensitive somewhat arrogant term. So it's good that we are talking about it. Sometimes we just don't know or have not heard the news. So we learn as we go. If you still hold these views even after learning differently then I believe it reflects poorly on a person.
I was very touched by the sensitivity of the different tribes. I was conflicted about Bruce leaving these wonderful people. Especially since he does it right after he's seemingly accepted. It bothered me to see his surrogate father bid Bruce fairwell with tearful eyes. Which leads us to the question of should he even be going there to begin with. Yes he should. And I tell you why.
Someone commented that this is clearly exploitative. The Discovery Channel as well as Bruce Parry. I will concede that it's possible but not likely. Yes it's a great show and it will bring advertising dollars. As far as Bruce I believe that these visits are truly personal and spiritual and that he respects and admires these tribes. The forces that will REALLY exploit these tribes will do so without a TV camera around. Without sensitivity. Logging, mining, pasture lands etc. The poverty surrounding many of these tribes will produce exploitation that this show, Bruce's visits could never bring. Perhaps if enough outside people care the transition to civilized life can be a gradual and an easy one for them to make.
I believe we benefit immseaurably by learning about these people and how they live.
The tribes seem to enjoy the visits. The Mongols even thanked Bruce for having interest in their lives. I think that this is true of all the tribes shown.
And No, they are not Savages. Those kinds of judgemental names say more about the person saying them they do who they're supposed to describe.
I understand and sympathyze with Princeakbar's assertions. I can even understand the anger expressed. Perhpas this is more personal for him in ways that he has not yet indicated although I think I understand.
But he's right on many different levels. However, in my opinion his approach and debate style is not productive. Someone on here asked why we cannot discuss such things peacably. Prince akbar?
Ron, I agree with most of your sentiments. However, I must respectfully disagree when you state "Someone commented that this is clearly exploitative. The Discovery Channel as well as Bruce Parry. I will concede that it's possible but not likely. Yes it's a great show and it will bring advertising dollars. As far as Bruce I believe that these visits are truly personal and spiritual and that he respects and admires these tribes. The forces that will REALLY exploit these tribes will do so without a TV camera around. Without sensitivity. Logging, mining, pasture lands etc. The poverty surrounding many of these tribes will produce exploitation that this show, Bruce's visits could never bring. Perhaps if enough outside people care the transition to civilized life can be a gradual and an easy one for them to make." Unfortunately, media exposure has been documented on several occasions as leading to exploitation of indigenous peoples. My favorite example is that of the Yanomamo of Venezuela & Brazil. As a direct result of media attention due to Napoleon Chagnon's books and films, logging was allowed in their territory, leading to the loss of land rights, and parceling of land. This had a drastic negative effect on them. My point is not that this show will surely lead to similar things happening to these groups. In fact, I think that in the end, this show will have little effect. But one cannot be sure. Producers must be held accountable for the repercussions of their projects. I would certainly hesitate to take responsiblity for this show because any recorded media can be misused. The utmost care must be taken in dealing with histically disenfranchised and oppressed peoples.
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