I would love to see an episode based entirely off of weapons like the XM8 and G36 and their different variations, also the air burst XM-29 SABR OICW, the FN SCAR or the HK G11 I would love to see these weapons on your show.
Yeah, it'd be cool, but with the exception of the G36 (and soon the xm8) all those weapons never really got out of the prototype stage and were all super classified. Also, the ideas were a little ahead of our technology. Steyr made an "ultimate assault rifle" that shot these tiny flechettes instead of bullets. They worked pretty well against soft targets, but did nil in a number of other situations. Also, they were so light they could easily be blown of target by the wind. All these super assault rifles are beyond the technology and budget of most western nations today, and have been dropped completely. Especially considering they no longer face the threat of invasion from the Soviet Union, which was why they were desperate for super weapons in the first place.
A lot of tactical teams around the country currently use the G36. Our team uses it, and we hate it. We have the G36C. In fact we just put in a proposal to replace our G36Cs with M4s. On a personal note, we are allowed to use our personally owned M4s. In most situations, that is my weapon of choice. The M4 in my opinion is a far betters weapons system. Of course this is coming from a SWAT operator & SWAT type operations.
First off there is no co-witness on the weapon. With a eo-tech mounted on the top of the carryhandle and the weapon zeroed at 25 or 50 yards, CQB shots are difficult. That is the point of aim & point of impact are not even close. Most our operations are CQB type drug warrants & the occasional barricaded subject. If I'm going for a head shot, I have to adjust for the massive differential in the impact point compared to point of aim. Even going for a center mass shot in the upper chest area, the round is hitting way low in CQB situations. To resolve this the situation since most our ops are CQB, we zero the eo-techs at 7 yards. Great for CQB, but shooting at 25 to 50 yards you are aiming at the waste or lower to hit the upper body, forget head shots at that range. also I'm not a fan of eo-techs. I prefer aimpointsIt's a reliability issue, they seem to go out quite frequently, only way to get it back on is to remove the battery compartement & put it back in. Or remove the site from weapon & go irons. Without a screwdriver on hand, not easy. One could get a quick release riser, like one for our operators, but that raises the site even higher, making it nearly impossible to get a good check weld on the weapon while looking through the site. In a combat situation the tactical option is to transition to the handgun. No seamless cowitness, hence you have to transition to your pistol. Second the folding stock makes the short barrel a waste. It is far easier to use my M4 with a 16 inch barrel then the G36C with stock extended, especially with our tact armor. The extended stock pushes the weapon to far way from the body, movement is restricted. What's the purpose of having a short barrell for CQB, when the extended folding stock takes away the advantage. An M4 with 16 inch barrel with stock collapsed for a CQB op is only a couple inches longer the our G36Cs with stock extended. Plus with the longer barrel the weapon is much more effective & prevents the hyper penetrating problem that we are having with our rounds The weapon also feels flimsy. We have had multiple weapons go down because of parts breaking. Magazines wells breaking, plastic sites breaking off. Internal mechanisms in the weapons breaking. With the latter H&K blames the ammo, & won't fix the weapon & you can't even get replacement parts with some of the particular parts it means getting a new weapon. As far as reliability, I've fired just as many rounds out of my M4 as my G36, and I have had more failures with the G36. Of course this is probably coincindental, but a fact. To be fair, SWAT teams for the most part don't go through desert, jungle or inclement situations for long periods of time in which the weapon would get foul. Of course my G36 is full auto, and my M4 is not. The only saving grace I will give the G36 is that it does not get nearly as dirty & is easier to clean, but that does not out way the negatives. I could go on, but this post is getting a bit long winded. The M4 is a far more comfortable & versatile weapons system then the G36 in my opinion. We have had the G36s for over 3 years & will be glad to get rid of them.
I have to echo everything said above. The G has to have one of the worst cheek welds of any fighting rifle I've ever carried, next to the XCR. Melting trunions, cheap handguards, ect. It's a poorly built rifle all around. I find it funny when people say they "like" the G. That tells me they have never even sholdered a member of the M-16 family.
I have never held a REAL weapon, I have a replica airsoft G36 that I find very comfortable, I have held a replica M4 and M16 and SR16 and AK47 among many others and the G36 FEELS the best to me. I dont care if you fools find it to be a crappy rifle in real steel why the hell do you think I want to see these weapons on the show so I can learn what i already know?
There is no reason to call us fools just for having real world experience. I'm not going to start a flame war here, but having a replica weapon & having handling a real world weapon & seeing it's downfalls in actual use gives one a different perspective. Sure the weapon get's a wow factor from the public cause it looks futuristic & I can see the view you are coming from actually not having the hands on experience. The purpose of future weapons is to see weapons actually going to be used, not weapons that just look futuristic. I'm just giving my opinion & that of the other operators on our department. Sure there are a few that don't mind it, but the majority of us, including me think it's junk, it'll get the job done & you can make it work, but the M4 is easily the superior weapon system. If you asked me what the best CQB weapons I've ever handled was, I'd say MP5, but that is for CQB only, it lacks the body armor penetration & range. Sure if you are a big department like LA SWAT, you can afford both the MP5 & M4. One can then curtail the weapon & operator for the mission having one or a combination of both. Our department on the other hand can't afford both weapon systems & the M4 does a good job of filling the gap. The weapon is controllable in full auto using short controlled burst & has the range & punch needed for most SWAT applications.
i know that the .308 is a big round for cqb, but this .223 (slightly bigger than .22 Cal, yes, your first plinker) and 9mm crap is killing me. (i do understand that the 5.56mm has a bigger charge behind it than a .22 LR) but still, 7.62mm and a .45 to complement in my opinion is much more effective.
if i shoot someone, i want them to go down and STAY down on the first shot, not 3 shots later.
i have never used a G36 varient so no comment, but i do beleave there are better guns than the M16/M4, MUCH better guns.
I have no problem with a 9mm for CQB purposes. As long as hollow points are used. I know the military cannot use hollow points. Modern 9mm hollow points are extremely effective against umarmored opponents. And in any CQB situation as long as it's not a hostage rescue situation, no matter what the weapon I'm going to fire more then one round, minimum 2 if not more. The 9mm, 5.56/.223 is much easier in having a second follow up shot, if not a third, then the .308. Then again the only .308 I've fired have been sniper rifles & I know semi-auto .308s have less recoil, so I'll leave it up to those who have actual experience with .308 semiauto rifles to determine whether it's useable. Our team is due to get some military surplus M14s so I'll get a chance to fire those soon. I know M14s are to big to use in CQB. Something like a Springfield Socom 16 is probably effective. A little big for my tastes, but it might work for some people.
I've shouldered an M16A2 and M4....and found both of them to be rather uncomfortable, mainly in the grips. I also hate the location of the charging handle. Though I wouldn't mind one as a plinker.
I hope these G36 failures lead to selling them on the civilian market--I'd love to have one just for the hell of it. K-model please :P
I'm curious, why would you use a .308 in a CQB situation? .308 is better for long range targets, and at that close range you'd shoot straight through two or three walls. Also, why use a rifle/carbine in a CQB situation, when you could easily use a pistol. .45ACP would probably have more stopping power than a .223 anyway.
I'm curious how that EoTech problem only effects the G36C. Adding it on the M4, you would still have the same distance zeroing problems.
I don't know about the M4 being a superior weapon system--to the G36, maybe. But not to the vast majority of other weapons you can choose. I remember a quote from a weapons evaluator saying that the only way to fix the M4 system is to "remove the front sight and put a new rifle under it".
I dont know what swat this guys from but I know the MP7 is too high priced for a regular old SWAT team, besides the M4 CQB version from my studies is what most swat teams use, some have the MP5a4/a5 etc. but that is mainly used by SEALS, and other special forces military. The G36 is the standard issue german army weapon so I dont even understand why US swat teams(if this guy is us swat) would even have G36s for use.
I'm not going to mention the agency, but we have a current 18 members, getting 3 newbies shortly. City population is about 150,000. The G36s were selected before I came on the team 3 years ago. Of course I wouldn't have much say in the matter anyway. It was made by the team leaders. At that point we had a few elite people making all the decisions. Our team is much different now in structure & attitude, only 5 people left from that group to our current team. It is no longer my way or the Highway, as one person put it. At that point the G36 was the latest thing. The department tested the P90, UMP 45 & G36C. Before that we carried the MP5 in .40 cal. That was discontinued by H&K so hence the switch. One reason for the G36 was the trade in H&K gave the department for the old MP5s. The people in charge were the thinking was also body armor penetration. A .45 ACP will not penetrate body armor. Don't ask me why they didn't test M4s, but they didn't. One of the team members who helped make the choice now admits it was a mistake. The rifle performed well in the test firing session, was easy to take apart & clean, so the decision was made for the G36Cs. I'm not sure how else they tested it, whether they had other team members try it or fully gear up & operate. I know when we tested our m4s we are hoping to get, we did the full gambit. Full Auto, short bursts, movement drills, room entries, mid range shooting, Shield/defense movements all in full gear. Even shot it with our WMD gear on. Everybody had some input. The overwhelming consensus was the M4 was far superior in every aspect to the G36, except for ease of cleaning, but that wasn't a major concern.
As far as the problems with the Eotechs I'm not sure what the deal is, but they routinely go out during heavy firing training sessions. The Zeroing issue is not a problem with the eotechs on the M4s. With a 50 yard zero, The distance from the point of aim to impact even with CQB is just over two inches, not sure the exact measurement, but it's the distance from the top of the post from the barrel. Even if the Eotechs is zeroed at CQB distance, which I don't agree with, on can still co-witness. Hence use the irons for longer distances and the Eotechs for short. You can Co-witness with the Flat-top models or the Carry handles. Just a matter a mounting the right accessory. The G36 does not give you that option My personal M4 has a carry handle, and one can transition from my aimpoint to the irons seamlessly. I have my aimpoint zeroed at 50 yards, same as my irons & have had no problems with precision shots in training at CQB or longer range. Like I said my opinion is coming from my personal experiences, others may think differently.
Now I don't know anout the G36 in cqb situations, I do know that it is a hell of an infantry rifle, The KSK, GSG-9,even the SAS has been known to use it on occasion. I have even read that the Royal Marine Commandos are thinking replacing the L85 with it, or the AUG. Even the US military is testing it as one of itsintirem weapons until they can replace the aging M16. Now if your looking for a M4 without all the issues you need the HK416 which is stoner's basic design, revamped by H&K. Infact Mac is using one in the next episode. Now on the Xm8, development has been postponed indefinately, mainly for the reason that it was not being developed by an American company, and that the US govt. had some sort of agreement with Colt Firarms. Also the XM29 OICW has been cancelled because they couldn't get the weight down. On the subject of SWAT teams, my cities team, Little Rock AR SWAT, uses Fabrique National P90s and M4s. Back to episode Ideas, I really want to see an episode on the Fabrique National SCAR and F2000 modualar rifles. Also the Atchisson assault shotgun / AA-12 would be awsome. The XM-26 LSS (lightweight shotgun system)is another suggestion. The US military's replacemaent for the M203 the XM320 grenade launcher would be good to. For aircraft it would be cool to do a show on the Sukhoi S37 berkut technology demonstrator or the already existent SU37 with its' 3D thrust vectoring.And that is about all I have say
redpiano, yeap that's my mistake for assuming he's a US SWAT, he might or might not, but it doesn't matter. How much is an MP7A1, in the most basic kit, if they do come in different kits? People often say some weapons are expensive etc, but I never knew how much would 1 be sold for.
jafo1701, thanks for the explanation. Hope you have some luck with the M4s. That is scary to think some bullets the law enforcements use cannot penetrate body armors. Normal police would be enough carrying std handguns (eg 9mm), but a special police unit... I would like to carry something that I can shoot through if not body armors, maybe furnitures etc, as suspects would be very likely be hiding.
But this is a G36C and XM8 blabla thread So I think I'll stop here with my questions. FW is an awesome show, and this is a great forum. I think I can learn many things here.
I would love to see FN2000 as well. A very futuristic looking weapon.
Well what some people dont seem to understand is that I didnt make this topic so someone can come complain about the G36, I made this topic so I could suggest a couple cool yet not very well known rifles so that mabye little kiddies would stop saying ZOMG THE XM8 SO COOL!! even though it was cancelled due to difficulties with cleaning, disassembly, and overall usage. same with the XM29OICw. The SCAR isnt even used by many infantry because its sort of ahead of its time...hate to compare but its like the sega dreamcast.
