I have to admit that I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't really know what all has been said. However, the few posts that I have read did not strike me as personally judging anyone, rather stating the posters opion. This and a few other issues (breastfeeding, co-sleeping, spanking) are issues that lots of people have very strong convictions about. I think when people have very strong feelings on either side of the issue that it can often come across as judgemental, and maybe at times it is (after all, it is human nature to judge others). However, being judgemental or feeling strongly about an issue doesn't mean that anyone is saying that anyone else is a bad parent, or that they made the wrong choice.

I think by coming to a public message board, and putting posts about your parenting ideas out there for everyone to read, you are naturally going to receive comments that you don't necessarily like (as it's obvious that not everyone is going to agree with you). In my opinion, if you don't want your opinions or the way you choose to do things questioned and/or criticized then you simply should not post on a public message board.

I'm sure that many of you are going to think this is harsh and "judgemental", but the fact remains that it's a public message board, meaning that people are ALWAYS going to disagree about things, and just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that it's a personal attack. None of us know one another, we aren't friends per se, how could we possibly attack anything about anyone's character???

momand2kids,

I don't believe that it's okay just because society says it's okay. Society seems to think that being promiscuous, prostitution, and materialism are okay, and I don't agree with those either.

I do think that there should be laws to protect innocent children from having their bodies altered unnecessarily by their parents.

BUT, because their parents live in a society that currently sends the message that these things ARE okay, I find it impossible to judge these parents for doing these things!! If all you have heard all your life is that it's beneficial to have your son circumcised, then how can you be blamed for doing it?? I personally decided to really look into it and make my decision based on my own findings and feelings, but there are certainly other areas where I haven't done as much research, and do things because our society deems them the "right" thing to do.

I don't believe that any parent is perfect, including myself, so even when parents make decisions that I believe are wrong, and violate their child's rights, I fully recognize that I myself have made mistakes, too!!

I personally think that nothing in the world is more important to worry about than my son's well-being, and IMO, circumcision would affect his well-being. So, that's why I worry about it. I would not expect EVERY parent to worry about it...we are all different.

My comment about not moving to Ontario was directed to a poster who said that she had her son circumcised so he wouldn't feel different. For me personally, that had absolutely no bearing on my decision, but obviously it did for this parent. So, I wanted to point out that though her son may be "the norm" where she's from, there are places in the world (increasingly more and more) where her son would NOT be "the norm". To me, unless your son is NEVER going to move, choosing to circumcise or not circumcise simply to make them not different is irrelevant.

I am certainly not out to change the minds of parents who KNOW they want to circumcise their sons. There currently IS no law saying that parents can't choose for their sons, so they are not technically doing anything "wrong", and their decision really has no effect on me personally. I just think that our society has a lot of "pro-RIC" info out there, and it's good to hear the other views too!

Thanks for your well wishes...I think it will be amazing!

caydensmommy

Protecting innoncent children from their parents altering their bodies?? From ear piercing and circumcisions? Seriously?? I am not trying to question your beliefs but I am more confused now by your posts than I was before. My son is over his circumcision and so am I. My daughter is over her ears being pierced and so am I.None of us have lost any sleep over it.They aren't emotionally or physically scarred and yes they are progressing very well through childhood. I know I am not perfect and I don't claim to be, I just feel that there are bigger fish to fry in parenthood than this. Drugs,alcohol, pregnancy, disease, illness,peer pressure,just to name a few..Just because my child has her ears pierced doesn't mean I am not concerned for her well being. That's ridiculous. Anyways, we can agree to disagree. They're just opinions and everyone is entitled to one.

Quote: "Your explanation is very clear, but try re-reading it....and really READ the words....you see NOTHING wrong with that way of thinking?? I would be extremely angry if any of my parents had felt that they could make a permanent decision regarding MY body."

Nope, NOTHING wrong with that. We make decisions concerning our kids bodies all the time. Whether to vaccinate, give medicine or not (you can decide to treat an illness or let it run it's course), have them take vitamins, what they wear, etc...It is all a parents decision. If you stand by the decision that it is their bodies, then you cannot make any of these decisions. What about ear tubes or tonsilectomys? You cannot do any of those either. It is our decision, and we do make the best that we can. For that doctor to make that decision during surgery for a grown man is different. The adult man can give consent, and he did not. I am the adult and I give consent for what concerns my son.

I do stand by my decision and my reasoning. While he is in my care, I make the decisions. It is up to you whether you agree with me or not. Oh, and you shouldn't move to Louisiana, as your son would be in the minority. My decison to circ was not based upon the social norm in my area, but upon family norm. I understand that areas all over the world may or may not circ as the norm. But that doesn't bother me. To each his own.

Interstingly I do agree with most of your post that because it isn't against the law doesn't mean that it is okay. And I agree that I don't, or at least I try, not to judge other parents decisions. It doesn't matter to me that everyone agrees with me, but that I am content with my decisions for my family. We go through so much, I am not going to stress about my past. If I made a mistake, then I can only hope that my son forgives me and understands my position--on any of the decisons that I have made.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kldupuis,

kldupuis...lol, I have no intention of moving to the States....it scares me too much! If my son does ever move there, he will be too old to care anyways...but like you, the social norm has had very little (or no) bearing on my decision to leave my son intact.

Just for interest (not to argue or prove a point), from what I've read, the USA is one of very few countries that still do RIC. Intact boys are becoming the norm all over the world. I was surprised to read this, so I just thought I would pass it on as trivia.

If you believe that circumcising your son protects him against medical issues, then yes, it can be compared to vaccinations, vitamins, etc. For me, I am not at all convinced that circumcision would benefit my son's health, so I don't consider it to be a "health decision".

I have NO problem making health-related decisions for my child; that's my job. But, altering his body for reasons that are not related to his health are not okay to me.

I do cut his hair...but it will grow back. Foreskin doesn't grow back (well, at least not without a lot of work!). Similarly, there is no guarantee that piercing holes will grow over...I know twins who both ended up with "bubbles" on the backs of their ears from infant piercings.

I think that parents who circ because they believe it's best for their son, from a health perspective, are at no greater fault than I am for making any of the mistakes that I have made! But, I think that circ'ing "just because" or ear piercing, which is PURELY for cosmetic reasons (with the exception of the few cultures that do it for cultural/religious reasons) IS a mistake, and a violation of the child's rights to have a say in what happens to their own body....but like I said, that's just me!

Your son, I'm sure, WILL forgive you if he decides he wants a foreskin when he's older, because you made your decision with his best interests in mind. Who could fault you for that? Obviously, you will be able to live with yourself if he doesn't want to be circ'd. And you probably would feel very guilty if he was intact, and ended up with medical problems because of it.

I'm the opposite way, which is why I made the opposite decision.

The comment that I made before was made when I was thinking about parents circ'ing for cosmetic or "fitting in" reasons. But, I know that just because I don't feel there is any medical reason to circumcise, doesn't mean that others don't.

So, I retract that statement in regards to parents who circ for medical reasons. But, for those who do it for cosmetic reasons, my opinions stands.

You know, I agree with you. It is hard to pin down one exact reason why I circ'd. There are several factors that made a large part of my decision. And interestingly enough, I won't pierce any future daughter's ears just in case they don't want to have to wear earrings. ~laughs~ If in the future he wants to be intact, then I will have to apologize profusely. But if I didn't do it and, like you said, he has problems or other medical issues, I would feel horrible. I did think about all of this and I made a decision that I am comfortable with.

I am glad that we are able to actually disagree and at the same time agree on a lot of things. In essence, I think that is how all moms are. We do things differently, but most of all we have their best interests at heart.

caydensmommy, I have to be honest -- your posts really seem contradictory to me. Not in your stance on circumcision but in the way you present your point.

You keep saying that you aren't judgemental of parents who have decided to circumcise their sons and, yet, in many of your posts you sound very judgemental. The way that I find them judgemental is that, in a previous post about a grown man who was circumcised without his knowledge or consent, you referred to the circumcision as "damaging" him. I'm not saying that what happened to him is right but to claim that males who are circumcised are "damaged" is rather inconsiderate to those males who ARE circumcised.

Also, in a previous post of yours in this thread, you make the statement: [QUOTE]
I think that parents who circ because they believe it's best for their son, from a health perspective, are at no greater fault than I am for making any of the mistakes that I have made! [QUOTE](seems to me that telling someone that they made a mistake in choosing circumcision just because YOU don't agree with it is rather judgemental) and [QUOTE] Your son, I'm sure, WILL forgive you if he decides he wants a foreskin when he's older, because you made your decision with his best interests in mind. [QUOTE] Do you honestly think that THOSE statements sound non-judgemental? Believe it or not, many men who are circumcised do not consider themselves as "damaged" or feel the need to "forgive" their parents for having them circumcised. I don't know of any man who sits around with his friends lamenting that he is missing his foreskin -- it's just not an issue with most males until someone else makes an issue of it.

I have kept silent about this debate for the most part but I am really getting weary of your comments about circumcision being a "damaging" procedure or one that is a "mistake" made by the parents.

Circumcision is not what you feel is in the best interest of your child and that is fine. I don't see anyone telling you that you are damaging your child by not having it done or that you are making a mistake for not having it done. Please show the same courtesy to those who have made different decisions than you.

I agree momoftrj, I was beginning to think I was the only one who thinks that caydensmommy's posts are judgemental,contradictory and very confusing.Not for what caydensmommy believes is right for her son because I respect that, but for how she seems to look down upon those who have pierced their daughters ears or circumcised their son's. I have seen the "not so healthy" side of an uncircumsiced male and like I said in my previous post it's sad, not to mention a little disgusting.Little boys grow up to be elderly men who won't always have someone around to make sure "proper hygiene" is used. So, instead of focusing on the fact that they might grow up and be "bitter" (give me a break) because their mom and dad had them circumcised when they were a day old, I would be looking at the more long term picture. I have met alot of people in my lifetime through my career and let me say that I have yet to come across any male who wishes he had his foreskin back. Those who do, I think have bigger "issues" that stem way beyond being circumcised. Sorry. On a different note, Caydensmommy, have you thought perhaps of going into holistic health practices instead of the conventional nursing practices? Just curious, I think you would do well at that.

My oldest son was circumcised incorrectly. His penis got infected time after time when he started using the bathroom by himself. He wasn't wiping correctly nor was he washing it correctly. It burned & it was swollen. We took him to be recircumcised. It was the best thing for him. He was 7 at the time. He hasn't had a problem since then. It is one thing not to be done due to religiuos reason, but it should be done as an infant. My son had to go to the hospital, be put under the knife at 7, afraid , the pain afterwards.. he cried & he was in school. He couldn't particapate in gym, or ride his bike or walk up & down the stairs for almost a month.
Just because the child can't say as an infant he wants it done or not doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. He didn't ask to be brought into this world, yet you & your husband decided to have him. Same thinking.

Ok, since everyone seems determined to keep this topic open, I'd like to pose a question.

First, let me start by saying, I am NOT judging or questioning anyone's decision to circ their sons. I wouldn't circ if I ever had a son, but whether or not you did absolutely DOES NOT matter to me. I simply want to know what everyone, especially those who think that it's right to circ. because you are in charge of your childs body, feels about this.

My husband is adopted. He is circumcised, and wishes he wasn't. The decision to circumcise was made by his BIOLOGICAL MOTHER. So, the woman who DID NOT want to keep, and be responsible for this child, got to make the choice for him, to physcially alter his body (and in my opinion, sexually mutilate him). What do you think of this, as I think that it should be ILLEGAL for a woman that does not want to keep her child, to be allowed to make that type of decision regarding their bodies. If you are giving up your parental rights, that should mean ALL parental rights, especially those concerning physical alteration. What do you think?

momoftrj, I think you are reading too much into my posts...I'm not sure why I'm coming across as being judgmental. I can assure 100% that I am NOT judgmental at all.

I used the term "damaged" only because I have talked to men who are trying to restore their foreskin, and THEY feel that they are "damaged". Because I was talking about men who try to restore foreskin, I used their term.

As for the "mistake" comment, I guess I worded that incorrectly...but all I meant was that if a man feels that his parents made a mistake in circ'ing him, hopefully he will not feel any different than my son will for anything that he thinks I did mistakenly. I was not trying to say that all circumcision is a mistake.

momand2kids, I understand about the hygiene issue, but as I stated before, I believe it's up to the man....my ex did NOT have good hygiene. He was circumcised, but it was gross. My son's father is intact, and has good hygiene, and he is MUCH cleaner than my circumcised ex! So, for ME, that wasn't a good enough reason to circ.

And like I said, I have talked to men who regret being circ'd, and are trying to reverse it. So, it's THOSE men I am talking about...not ALL. I know very well that not ALL men want to be intact. I have talked to some men who are very much FOR circumcision.

Men who want to restore foreskin don't have any more "issues" than anyone else...they just feel that they want back the part of them that is missing, and to me, that seems totally reasonable! It's often about the principle of the thing, I think...

As far as nursing goes, modern nursing education IS holistic! I'm fortunate that Canadian hospitals no longer perform RIC, so I won't have to deal with that, but I will encounter lots of parents who make decisions that I don't feel are ideal. It won't make ANY difference as to how I treat them. Nurses are not permitted to make judgments. I will bite my tongue, smile, and care for them and their baby the way I will care for ALL my clients, with compassion and understanding.

waflecrisp, incorrect circumcision is one of the reasons why I decided against RIC. I'm sorry your son went through that.

cjk, I absolutely agree with you. I could not agree more.

thanks caydensmommy!!

momand2kids, we disagree on the whole issue and that's fine, I wouldn't circ, but I don't at all care that you did. However, I think its a bit JUDGEMENTAL of you to say that men who wish they weren't circ'd have deeper "issues". My husband would prefer to not be circ'd, and he doesn't have any "issues" other than the fact that his genitals were mutilated without his consent.

Caydensmommy, I meant to say naturopathic not holistic.Anyways, I assume your son's father is young and ABLE to take care of himself properly and perform good personal hygiene?That makes a big difference.I work with Alzheimer patients and I have to say that there is always uncircumcised residents who come to my floor with an infection of one kind or another from poor personal hygiene( a direct result of not being circumcised.)Yes, it does happen to those who are circ'd too but the frequency is much higher in the uncircumcised male(among the elderly in my situation).On the flip side of the coin, my best friends husband is not circumcised and he wishes his mom had made that decision for him at infancy instead of waiting until he was adult. The pain will be much more intense and the recovery time will obviously alot longer.

cjk76, I am not passing judgement, I am just stating that I do believe the issues are deeper than just being circumcised.Has your husband always felt this way or is it because you refer to him as being "sexually mutilated". That would be enough to make me upset and want my foreskin back too. Seriously, I didn't mean that to be disrespectful, I just can't believe you would say that.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that men would want to have a foreskin.

If part of me were missing, I'd wish it wasn't...that's not to say that EVERYONE would, I just don't think there has to be any reason other than knowing that you were born with something that was removed without your consent.

FTR, most men I have talked to who wish they weren't circ'd aren't angry at their parents. They just wish they had made a different choice.

momand2kids, yes, I realize that older men have a harder time caring for themselves. I've worked with many elderly men (and young men with disabilities) who are unable to care for themselves, and some are intact.

Nursing staff is taught how to care for an intact male. There is no excuse for it not to be done correctly. The health care system is screwed up, so that elderly men sometimes can't get proper care in their own homes. But, I'm hoping that things will be better by the time my son is 90, so again, that wasn't a good enough reason for me to do it.

Why exactly is the pain more intense and the recovery time longer for adults than infants? I would have thought that it would be longer for an infant, because they wear diapers...

The reason I say "sexually mutilated" is because that's how my husband refers to circumcision. And no, the issue isn't any deeper than HE WISHES HE WEREN'T CIRCUMCISED. It's probably not all that unusual, have you asked EVERY man you know how he feels about this issue??

To be honest with you, I really didn't have an opinion one way or the other regarding circ., until I got pregnant the first time. Not knowing if we were having a boy or a girl, my husband and I naturally had the circumcision discussion. He felt VERY STRONGLY against circumcising, because he feels it is a form of sexual mutilation, on par with female genital mutilation.

For you to presume that I would actually say something so hurtful to my own husband, shows that you are not the person with the integrity that you claim to be. If I recall correctly, it wasn't all that long ago that you were involved in a thread about the Havens Family, and you yourself were QUITE judgemental of the actions of this family.

caydensmommy, I assume people believe the pain is more intense when you are an adult, simply because their infants can't tell them "It hurt when they cut off part of my penis".

There are studies that show that male infants who have been circumcised respond to pain from immunizations in infancy and show more signs of stress after immunizations than uncirc'd male infants.........remembering and responding to the pain perhaps???

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kim g,

caydensmommy - I already posted this, but used a trigger word (or 2), so who knows when they'll actually get around to putting up the post. Anyway, you'll probably see it twice.....

I think people probably assume the pain is worse in adulthood because their infants can't say to them "it hurt like h*ell when they cut off part of my p*enis".

There are studies that show that circumcised male infants have a more negative response to infant immunizations, and show more signs of stress post immunization than uncirc'd infant males.........remembering the pain perhaps????

cjk76, YOU were the one that used the term "sexual mutilation"to describe your husband's cicumsicion not me.Whether you said it to him, about him or on a post with a thousand hits YOU said it.Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.I don't care if any other child is circumcised other than my own, and if you read my posts you will see that I have had alot of integrity. I have tried very hard to appreciate both sides.Oh and if I remember correctly, people had alot of things to say about YOUR posts regarding the Havens Family.So again, choose your words carefully. I didn't come here to fight, obviously you did. Sorry that once again, you have to ruin another thread. Caydensmommy, I appreciate your views and even though we don't agree on alot of the issues I can appreciate your stand.

Yes, I was the one to use the term "sexual mutilation", but it wasn't to describe my husband's circ. YOU were the one who presumed I said it to my husband causing him to wish he had his foreskin back. It was a term used to describe how I feel about all circ's. YOU ensenuated that I said these words to my husband regarding his circ, and I most certainly DID NOT. I did choose my words carefully....personally, I feel that circumcising is sexual mutilation, but I DID NOT cause my husband to be unhappy with himself....as I stated in my post, "sexual mutilation" was HIS term.

I didn't come here to fight, I came here to ask the question regarding biological mothers being allowed to choose to circ the sons they are giving away. Instead of answering my question, you chose to pick on the term that I used to describe circumcision. As a matter of fact, you didn't answer my question at all. YOU are the one who, instead of answering the question I posed, attempted to start a fight by ASSUMING that I somehow caused my husband to be unhappy that he was circumcised.

And yes, people did have a lot to say about my posts regarding the Haven's family. But that was because they didn't agree with my views regarding NIP and extended BF. I did not pass judgement on anyone in that thread, YOU however did pass judgement on Sabrina and the way she chooses to nurse her child.