I don't understand why every vaginal delivery on A Baby story and every other show is assisted by an epidrual. It's very frustrating for me to see every woman taking the easy way out. I was only 20 when I had my first, and I still did it natural, even though everyone was pushing me into getting the epidural. (And I was given petocin so you can image how PAINFUL it was.) I know this may sound mean, but if you're not strong enough to go through labor and delivery naturally, then are you really strong enough to take care of the child. I'm just saying, it seems like nowadays everyone wants everything the easy way, so they never appreciate what they have and how they got it. I'm pround of myself for going natural, and so would other mothers if they just chose that path.

Not all of the vaginal births featured on ABS are done with epidurals. There was one on today where the mom used no pain medication at all and I have seen other deliveries on the show where the Mom used no pain medication.

Now...on that note. If a woman chooses to use an epidural to aid in the delivery of her baby -- it is HER choice. It does not make her any less of a woman because she used pain medication.

I have delivered 4 children -- my first 2 deliveries were without an epidural and my last 2 were with an epidural. I do not feel like a failure or a loser or like I took the easy way out with my 2 daughters with which I had the epidural each time. Nor am I any less proud of those deliveries than I am of the ones without the epidural. With 3 of my 4 deliveries, I was given Pitocin and so I know the pain that is involved with that. I am GLAD for the epidurals that I got because I was able to enjoy the labor and the delivery with my daughters instead of being in excruciating pain like I was with my first 2 deliveries.

To equate one's parenting capabilities and skills with how much physical pain they can endure is absolutely ludicrous. One has nothing to to with the other. If you are referring to coping mentally with enduring labor and delivery without pain medication, again, that doesn't measure what kind of parent you will be.

I am extremely appreciative and grateful for my children that I have because I know how easily tomorrow can change things. How they were born isn't what makes me grateful and appreciative for them -- it's that fact that they WERE born and they are amazing children and I know that I was given a HUGE gift by being allowed to be a mother. There are so many women out there that try everything they can for that opportunity and have to struggle with infertility.

Children are a gift because they are here -- not because of how they got here.

I am a 21 year old that has a 6 month old little girl. I did not use an epidural. I did however use something for the pain that they gave me in my IV. After almost 52 hours of labor I needed it. It was so worth it the way I did it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by songbirdsing:
I don't understand why every vaginal delivery on A Baby story and every other show is assisted by an epidrual. It's very frustrating for me to see every woman taking the easy way out. I was only 20 when I had my first, and I still did it natural, even though everyone was pushing me into getting the epidural. (And I was given petocin so you can image how PAINFUL it was.) I know this may sound mean, but if you're not strong enough to go through labor and delivery naturally, then are you really strong enough to take care of the child. I'm just saying, it seems like nowadays everyone wants everything the easy way, so they never appreciate what they have and how they got it. I'm pround of myself for going natural, and so would other mothers if they just chose that path.[/QUOTE]

If you chose to have your children naturally and without any pain medication, good for you. That's wonderful and I'm glad you made the choice that is right for you.

However, how dare you accuse those of us who choose to avail ourselves of medication of being weak. I have three children, and I had epidurals for all three births, and I am certainly strong enough to take care of my children. Purely from my standpoint, I see no need to go through pain unnecessarily, when there are safe medications available to assist me.

Yes, I know, women have been giving birth for centuries without epidurals. That doesn't mean they are inherently bad.

Do you completely shun modern medicine, or only that which allows you to climb up onto some kind of moral high horse?

WOW! very strong words. in other terms i would have to say "THEMS FIGHTIN' WORDS".
i agree with everyone here so far. ABS does show a lot of epidural births, BUT, it is now also a larger stat for epidural to natural ratio then ever before. i am glad that they do show epidural deliveries for those of us who have not had one to see what it is like to actaully get one. it has to be painful just to get the needle itself, i could not handle that so i have always opted for something else.
for my first child i made my birth plan, but there was always a back up, just in case i couldnt handle the pain. fortunately i delivered fast without too much pain and i only used a fraction of the gas that they had set up for me which gave me a very painful headache afterwards.
going into my second delievery i had the same plan, natural unless the pain gets to be too much. i did get a needle of nubain for this one, only because after four hours i was stuck and not progressing, even though the pain was. it wasnt too long after that i delivered.
but for that one needle i do not consider myself a failure or that i am weak in any way. what i do consider is the fact that i now have two beautiful HEALTHY daughters that i was able to give birth to in ANY WAY that i could, whether it was with a type of drug or without one, or even if i opted for a c-section.
on another note, there are a lot of teens out there that can handle pain a lot more then the 20, 30 and 40 somethings that are having children in a stable environment, it doesnt mean that one is less then the other for being a strong mother.
i really hope that the use of an epidural is not the only thing you judge a womans strength on for being a mother, because if it is then you are really missing the point to giving birth.
bethany.

Well, I'd just like to say that I had my daughter naturally ONLY because my hospital doesn't give epidurals unless of a c-section. But, if I had my say, I definately would have gotten one no doubt about it. That's what it's there for, and it would have made for a more enjoyable delivery.
Marsha

What I'm saying is that women have been giving birth without any pain medication for hundreds of thousands of years. That's part of what (I think) makes women stronger than men is because our bodies are designed to do so, and designed to handle the labor. Having pain meds doesn't make the delivery "more enjoyable", it numbs you to what's going on. Thats how I feel our society is, just numb ourselves from anything negative. A Natural labor is the only thing pure and natural we have left, and now that's even corrupted by drugs (and probably drug companies.) I think maybe the reason about 90% of deliveries on ABS are epidural assisted is probably to justify having one to the women who have already had one, and who plan to have one. So they see the episode and think "That woman had an epidural, so I won't be less of a woman if I have one, too."

Obviously it is always the woman's choice to do whatever she wants. But maybe if more women say labor and delivery as the most natural thing our bodies can do, then wouldn't want drugs to cloud things up. I mean, I say an ABS the other day. The women went in saying she wanted a natural delivery, then at 4 cm, she said it was too much, so she got the epidural. Then, the babies heart rate started to go down, because of the epidural. Is less pain really worth the health of your baby?

That's all I'm saying. And I would like to thank all of you for your input, (even if it disagrees with me.)

I just wanted to put my two cents in. I don't even have kids and I agree with everyone else! Like you all have said if it's there and it's healthy, what's the reason not to? It sounds like Songbirdsing has the mind set of a martyr. Pain for the sake of being in pain and saying you lived through it. It's not like you get a trophy. It's not going to kill or harm the baby, otherwise why would it even be an option? Doctors know what they are doing. Personally, when I do have kids, if I can't take the pain, I don't see any reason not to opt for the epidural. Songbirdsing, You say that women went through natural child birth for hundreds of years? People also went without electricity for hundreds of years, yet here you are on the internet.

I'm done.
Bethany Also.

in reading everything else since my last post, i have one more thing that i need to say.
songbirdsing, if you havent noticed the rate of mortality during birth has gone way down, due to many reasons, and one of those reasons is because of pain meds. i think i would rather still be here giving birth with a pain med then not able to raise my child because my heart or some other organ could not handle the pain. there is a saying, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger, well, i would rather be alive and have taken the pain meds then have the chance of not being here and able to be here with my child.
bethany.

I don't believe that it's having pain for pain sake or being a martyr or anything. There are some times in life that you need to struggle to learn and grow. Take a butterfly, for example, if it doesn't struggle to free itself from its cocoon, then it's wings won't be strong enough to fly.

It's really amazing how hostile everyone is getting over this issue. I mearly posed a question, and it seems like the women who have had an epidural or plan to have an epidural seem to be angry at me, because they feel like I'm calling them weak people. I never said anything like that. I asked the question if you can't handle the physical and emotional pain of childbirth, can you handle the emotional stress and whatnot of parenting? But I asked it as a question, not as an opinion. I know that women are strong enough to do it naturally, ALL women are, even the ones that had the epidural would have been strong enough to go natural. But, understandably when you're offered an easy out from a very painful situation, I can see the temptation. My husband kept trying to convince me that it was ok if I got the drugs as I was screaming in pain. I just wish that more women would stand their ground.

It's very sad that no one has really seemed to support doing it natural, saying "if it's there then use it!" But, if it wasn't there, and you couldn't use it, and I imagine that you and the baby would still manage to survive.

It's not that I shun modern medicine, either. My husband had cancer, and without modern medicine he would still have cancer. But painkillers are HARDLY medicine. They don't heal anything, they don't kill any diseases, and on occassion they can be harmful. The doctors aren't always looking out for your best interest, on occassion, they are looking out for the drug company's best interest. My pregnancy, for example, there was absolutely no medical reason or neccessity for giving me petocin. I was actually 4 days early from my due date. When I first came in they told me right away that I was going to be given petocin. After my water was broken, I began having contractions and progressing fine. I actually thought they had already given it to me, but they hadn't. Then when they did give me the petocin, I felt pain I never even imagined in my life!

Ultimately you do have to do what's best for you, but I just wish that the natural way was the new trend, instead of the drug way.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by songbirdsing:

It's really amazing how hostile everyone is getting over this issue. I mearly posed a question, and it seems like the women who have had an epidural or plan to have an epidural seem to be angry at me, because they feel like I'm calling them weak people. I never said anything like that. I asked the question if you can't handle the physical and emotional pain of childbirth, can you handle the emotional stress and whatnot of parenting? [QUOTE]

No...what you said was: [QUOTE] Originally posted by songbirdsing: I know this may sound mean, but if you're not strong enough to go through labor and delivery naturally, then are you really strong enough to take care of the child.[QUOTE] And you don't understand why some of us are upset?!?

You then go on to accuse those us us who opted for an epidural as using the easy way out. You know what? For the 2 pregnancies that I got the epidural for, I wanted to ENJOY the labor and delivery. Yes, I was numb but that is what made it enjoyable for ME! My waist down was numb -- not my BRAIN or thought-processes. Just because I couldn't feel my waist or my legs didn't take away from the enjoyment of delivering my child. Therefore I was able to focus on the magic of the moment knowing that I was going to be giving birth and, instead of wishing it away as quickly as possible so that I would be rid of my pain, I reveled in it and thought about my baby that was soon going to be there. Both of those pregnancies has been extremely difficult ones for me -- they were both high-risk, I was extremely ill during both of them, and I endured numerous tests, a gestational diabetic diet, and countless blood tests to check my sugar levels 4 times a day for the last 2 months of pregnancy not to mention the emotional toll on me as those pregnancies followed a stillbirth and a miscarriage. My labor was for the 9 months that I was pregnant with each of my girls. My doctor's couldn't do anything for me to make my pregnancies easier or less stress-free for me while carrying my daughters so why not at least let my labor and delivery be without pain and worry? I didn't enjoy those 2 pregnancies as much as I did my first but at least I can say that I enjoyed my labor and delivery with each one.


[QUOTE] Originally posted by songbirdsing: It's very sad that no one has really seemed to support doing it natural, saying "if it's there then use it!" But, if it wasn't there, and you couldn't use it, and I imagine that you and the baby would still manage to survive. [QUOTE] Yes we would survive but that doesn't make us a better mother because we did it without pain medication. The ladies on this board support one another -- whether it is 'natural' childbirth or medicated childbirth, C-section or vaginal birth because we are realize that every woman's birth experience is different and uniquely her own and each one of us knows what our tolerance level is for pain and we don't speak for others in saying what the best birth plan is for them. What is right for one may not be right for another.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by songbirdsing: But painkillers are HARDLY medicine. They don't heal anything, they don't kill any diseases, and on occassion they can be harmful. [QUOTE] I guess that everyone who has a root canal done or a dental extraction should be able to do it without pain medication as well then? Or how about a surgical procedure? Should those be endured without pain medication? That's how those things were done for thousands of years too until medical technology advanced to where we are today. Your statement above makes it sound like painkillers of any kind are useless and really shouldn't be used.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by songbirdsing: The doctors aren't always looking out for your best interest, on occassion, they are looking out for the drug company's best interest. [QUOTE] Due to malpractice insurance premiums being through the roof, doctors are going to be cautious and make sure they put their patient's best interests as their number one priority. A good doctor isn't going to let what kick-back's they get from a drug company for using their product run the risk of them losing a patient or their practice. It is important to interview your doctor's before any procedure to find out their viewpoints on things -- if they aren't putting your best interest at heart, then you should find another doctor.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by songbirdsing: I just wish the natural way was the new trend, instead of the drug way.[/QUOTE] And that is all fine and well and good but to make a blanket statement about women who opt for an epidural as taking the easy way out and questioning their parenting abilities if they don't go through unmedicated labor is insulting and unfair.

Amen, momoftrj. As always, you speak my mind.

As momoftrj pointed out, Songbirdsing, you did not merely ask us a simple question. You stated that those of us who had an epidural are not strong enough to be parents. If you really think that, you are ignorant.

Songbirdsing, I agree with you! I can't believe all of you are condeming a woman who believes in natural childbirth, like she was a murderer or criminal or something. Just because it goes against or makes you feel bad about how you gave birth! Because you wouldn't be "so fired up" if you didn't feel badly for some reason. If you just disagreed with Songbirdsing, then you would discuss it calmly--I would hope. I think that if you have no complications in your pregnancy, then there's no need for the epidural. Sure, there are some circumstances that differ, like a C-section, or poor heart condition, or whatever. But all in all, natural is the best way for the mother and the baby. Epidurals can slow down the labor, and even cause issues for the baby. Then, come pushing time, you can't even feel to push!

So STOP GAINING UP ON SONGBIRDSING!! She's only speaking HER mind, as you so applaud MomofTRJ. So what if Songbirdsing thinks that getting an epidural is week. In a way, it is, you're saying "I quit, I can't handle the pain." Instead of "This is horrible, but I'm strong enough to fight through it"

So BE NICE!

Actually...I don't feel badly at all about getting an epidural or any of my deliveries. And, my labors and deliveries were much shorter with the epidural than my 2 without because my body was not fighting against the pain and resisting dilation like it did with the first two -- even though I was doing my breathing and relaxation techniques. Also, contrary to what some people say about 'epidural babies', both of my daughter's were extremely healthy and very alert at their birth and remained awake and alert for 2-3 hours after their birth before going to sleep.

With my first baby (no epidural) - I was induced and labored for over 11 hours and only dilated one centimeter in that whole time and ended up having to have a C-section.

With my second baby (no epidural) -- I was induced and labored for 11 hours before finally delivering that baby.

With my third baby (with epidural), I had gone into labor on my own and labored for 7 hours before delivering my daughter after pushing for only 30 minutes.

And, with my last baby (with epidural), I was induced and labored for 4 hours before delivering my daughter after pushing for only 20 minutes.

We are not condemning Songbirdsing for promoting or preferring a natural birth. More power to her for having the birth experience that she wanted. What we are upset about it how Songbirdsing is condemning those mothers who had an epidural as opposed to an unmedicated birth.

There have been several posters and topics on this board in the past who have given their viewpoints on things (breast vs. formula-feeding, C-sections vs. Vaginal births, Home vs. Hospital Deliveries, etc.) who have done so in an informative, give-and-take dialogue without being harsh and judgemental as Songbirdsing came off as in her post.

Sometimes it isn't what a person says, it's how they say it and I believe that all of us feel that Songbirdsing is entitled to her opinion but she could have and should have found a more tactful way of saying it.

I need to let some stuff out and I really hope I don't offend anyone but here goes. I personally think people who have epidurals are weak as well as are taking the easy way out. I never ever considered taking anything for pain meds except for tylenol. I did end up having some pain stuff through my IV but that was after I passed out in between my contractions after 52 hours. I never considered an epidural because it can effect the baby. I don't remember all of my labor and delivery but I made it enjoyable with an epidural. Us as women need to be strong. Do whatever you feel is better but think about your child growing inside of you.

"Epidurals can slow down the labor, and even cause issues for the baby. Then, come pushing time, you can't even feel to push!"

That's not always true. It wasn't for me in any of my three labor and deliveries (I really need to change my s/n).

My children were all healthy and alert and awake for a few hours after birth. I pushed for a maximum of 15 minutes and could feel to push.

No one is condemning Songbirdsing for her choice to deliver naturally. If that's the choice you feel is right for you, great. We are protesting her condemnation of us who choose epidurals as weak. There is a vast difference.

Just as we respect her decision to choose the best option for her, we ask that she respect our decisions for our children and our situations.

As far as the allegation of "ganging up," are we supposed to wait for equal representation on a thread before we can present our opinions? If you make a controversial statement, you should anticipate forceful reactions.

Yeah, someone finally agrees with me. I thought I was the only one left in the world who wasn't pro-epidural.

I apologize if my words were taken more harshly than they were meant. I wasn't trying to say that if you have an epidural, you'll definitely be a bad mother. But I do think that having an epidural (if the pregnancy and everything is healthy and normal) is, in a way, giving up. The more you can endure, it proves how strong you are, not only to yourself, but to your child.

I'd be lying if I said I don't look down on women who get an epidural, but that's ONLY because I know they're not living up to their full potential. They're just selling themselves short.

On another note, there is a difference between an epidural and novacaine for a root canal or surgery. Root canals and surgeries are cutting into the body, and not a natural procedure. Giving birth is completely natural, and unless you're having a c-section, there is no incision. Would you take an epidural for a really painful poop, too?

Well I don’t have any kids, but I will say that if the pain can be numbed why not do it. Why suffer when you don’t have too. Women that take drugs in labor are no more less of a women then women who choose not too. Yes for centuries women have given birth naturally with out pain relievers, but our world has evolved, why suffer when you don’t have too, or you can lessen it.



Everyone has their opinions and I don’t look down on anyone’s. All women are strong wether you take drugs during birth or you dont.

WOW THIS ONE GOT ME THINKING... MY FIRST BIRTH (EPIDURAL) WENT VERY WELL. MY SECOND(NO-EPIDURAL) ALSO WENT WELL. BOTH WERE SO QUICK THAT I WILL "PROBABLY" GO NATURAL WITH NEXT. I SAY PROBABLY BECAUSE EVERY PREGNANCY, LABOR , AND BIRTH CAN BE DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER. WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT NO ONE CAN SPEAK FOR ANYONE ELSE'S PAIN AND THE MANAGMENT OF IT. LET ME ASK THIS...IF YOU OR A LOVED ONE WERE DYING OF A TERMINAL ILLNESS, ALTHOUGH SAD, DEATH CAN BE A PAINFUL YET NATURAL PROCESS WHEN YOUR BODY NO LONGER FUNCTIONS CORRECTLY... WOULD YOU WANT TO DIE NATURAL IN PAIN OR WITH DIGNITY AND COMFORTABLE? I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW HOW OLD "SONGBIRDSING" IS.

well, things are starting to calm down a little on either side since my last post.
from what has been said so far we have two really strong sides. pain meds vs. no pain meds. and yes there are more supporters for pain meds then none. hopefully i am going to be diplomatic about this, but i still may come off as one sided.
my birth plan was no meds what so ever. i didnt want an iv, nothing. i am not afraid of needles or anything like that, i just didnt want to have anything so that i could say i did it without. i could lord that over anyone else how had something, like my sil. she had pain meds with all of her deliveries. i discovered i had an anxiety disorder while i was pregnant with my first child, i couldnt leave the house, made working very difficult, but i got through it with counselling, no meds. got to my delivery and i had nothing. no meds. i was proud of that, and of me, and yes i did lord it over my sil for a while. my second child was different though. i wasnt working to begin with so that wasnt a factor in it, but i was running after a 18 month old a lot, so i was tired, very tired. also my due dates for both of them had been the same, so when my first dd's bday came and went i really felt like i was overdue, but i went a week late past the due date, which put them at almost a month apart, and i had to be induced. this was definately not my birth plan. i was loosing control over the situation, and that made my anxiety flare. after four hours i told the nurse that i was in the same amount of pain that i was when i delivered my first, and that was a lot for me. so i was checked and no where near. i did not want the epidural, but i did need something to take the edge off. so like i said before i had the nubain. i got a nice little needle in my bum. and that wore off within an hour. but it was that hour of the nubain that helped relax my muscles so that my dd could come into the canal better and be ready to be pushed out. actually the dr pretty much just got there to catch. but i felt everything, even the tear. and in fact i tore a bit, and when the dr went to stitch me back up he did not put any freezing in because he was not used to doing a non epidural delivery. i said ouch, and he put the freezing in.
i am against epidurals FOR ME, not for anyone else. i do not think that anyone is weak for having one, whether it is for a c-section or not. i respect whatever decision you and your husband come to in how you will be during your pregnancy, and the delivery and in the raising of your children. if you ask my opinion about something i will give it. however, songbirdsing, you did come off with a very hurtful and damaging statement that certainly sent everyone on the defensive because of it.
and i must say, even though i did have my birth plans for both of them, if i found at any point during the labour that i could not handle the pain i would have asked for something maybe stronger then the nubain, which is the epidural, but that would be after a labour of extremely long lengths. also i found having something to lord over someone else isnt the best reason to do it. i may have proved to myself that i could do it, but if something had happened because of that, i dont know what i do afterwards. i have seen on more then one occassion that someone waiting too long for some type of meds to ease their body for the baby has killed the baby right there in the labour and delivery room, just because they were stubborn about not having any meds.
i think i am done, for now.
bethany.