A quiet afternoon nap, at the same time every day, in a dimly lit room, with soft music playing.

A nice long cuddle with her mom, reading lots and lots of books, for at least an hour.

A regular bathtime, in a tub (NOT on a bus), with lots of fun bath toys.

A regular bedtime.

No more media appearances, bright lights, strange cameramen telling her to smile.

No more long bus trips with 20 other people on the bus.

A real mommy, and not just a teenage older sister to care for her.

A mom that will brush her hair and sing her songs.

A dad who does NOT refer to her (even jokingly) as #17.

whatever michelle and JB do the best they can most parents with 2 or 3 kids dont even sit and brush their childs hair or give them a regular bath.

I want to give her a real bed to sleep in. One that has a fitted sheet, top sheet and blanket.

I want to give her a space where she can play alone when she needs to, or just with her little sisters. A place away from the rambunctious boys.

I want to give her regular meal and snack times during the day and provide her with healthy foods.

I want to give her a special day with just her mommy. A trip with just the two of them...to the zoo, the park, or a trip to the mall to get a toy or a shirt.

I want her to pick that item out. It would be something she wanted and her very own.

True there are those with two kids who dont brush Whats the diffrence in those and using older siblings to almost raise their kids? I dont know why people are always comparing the Duggars to those with two kids. It is just an excuse to me.
Jennifer needs:
the pacifier taken from her mouth
individual time with mom or dad
no more long trips for awhile
a new toy
regular shedules
I dont think this is the teriible twos calling.

I want to give Jennifer lots of hugs and kisses.

I want to read to her the most beautifully illustrated children's books that I have. Examples "Heart of a Tiger" and "The Velveteen Rabbit".

I want to go on nature walk's with Jennifer.

I want to buy her a regular "princess bed" outfitted with nice linens.

How do we know that Jennifer doesn't get some of the things posted? We only see a tiny piece of their lives on TV. For all I know she may get a regular snack time,get read illustrated books,and her parents do spend time with each child but we are not privy to thosose times.I have 4 kids and when they were all kids they loved to climb on the bed or couch, sometimes circled around me, and have me read to them. They just loved to be read to and if I excluded all but one child, it wouldn't have gone over well. When having general conversations about kids, I sometimes would say my oldest, the next-to-youngest,or my second son, etc.and just like others were refering to theirs. My 2nd daughter hated having her brushed by anyone.Some little girls are just rambuntious tomboys like my youngest sister was. I didn't take one child to the zoo without the others. I'd feel bad leaving the others behind. But when they got older, I did spend time alone with them. I had 6 siblings and my parents not only would've loved a small bus to take us places. I know a couple who had triplets after she already had three older children and they were able to take vacations driving cross country. They loved it. To each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by jaykay1:
How do we know that Jennifer doesn't get some of the things posted? We only see a tiny piece of their lives on TV. For all I know she may get a regular snack time,get read illustrated books,and her parents do spend time with each child but we are not privy to thosose times.I have 4 kids and when they were all kids they loved to climb on the bed or couch, sometimes circled around me, and have me read to them. They just loved to be read to and if I excluded all but one child, it wouldn't have gone over well. When having general conversations about kids, I sometimes would say my oldest, the next-to-youngest,or my second son, etc.and just like others were refering to theirs. My 2nd daughter hated having her brushed by anyone.Some little girls are just rambuntious tomboys like my youngest sister was. I didn't take one child to the zoo without the others. I'd feel bad leaving the others behind. But when they got older, I did spend time alone with them. I had 6 siblings and my parents not only would've loved a small bus to take us places. I know a couple who had triplets after she already had three older children and they were able to take vacations driving cross country. They loved it. To each his own.

We know she doesn't get these things because:

They spend months living on their bus, where she sleeps with Jill

When Jennifer is upset, she calls for Jill, not her mom.

When she is at home, she shares a room with 7 other girls

The family is constantly going to media engagements, and also has camera and film crew often in their home.

They spent a month at the Bates, with about 56 other people, in total chaos and noise.

If I am not mistaken Jennifer and JoHannah still sleep in a "play and PaK.

I think she needs a life that is more G rated than she has: I am sure she overhears talk of periods, pregnancies, conceiving, and yet she would not be allowed to dance and when she is older will have to wear a Jacque Cousteau suit just to play in the kiddie pool. My life was more G rated than that and I was a boy.

quote:

Originally posted by jaykay1:
How do we know that Jennifer doesn't get some of the things posted? We only see a tiny piece of their lives on TV. For all I know she may get a regular snack time,get read illustrated books,and her parents do spend time with each child but we are not privy to thosose times.I have 4 kids and when they were all kids they loved to climb on the bed or couch, sometimes circled around me, and have me read to them. They just loved to be read to and if I excluded all but one child, it wouldn't have gone over well. When having general conversations about kids, I sometimes would say my oldest, the next-to-youngest,or my second son, etc.and just like others were refering to theirs. My 2nd daughter hated having her brushed by anyone.Some little girls are just rambuntious tomboys like my youngest sister was. I didn't take one child to the zoo without the others. I'd feel bad leaving the others behind. But when they got older, I did spend time alone with them. I had 6 siblings and my parents not only would've loved a small bus to take us places. I know a couple who had triplets after she already had three older children and they were able to take vacations driving cross country. They loved it. To each his own.

Mathematically, she *can'* be getting all of that. The math's been done. At best, each kids gets 35 minutes at best and 10 minutes at worst alone ith their parents. That's it. That's all that time allows for. If she's getting more time, then it means that the siblings are getting even less. Heaven knows that they each deserve to have a day out with their mom or dad (or both), they deserve to be looked after by their parents and not their siblings, but it doesn't seem that they get any of that. Yes, we don't see everything. But there's 18 kids and 24 hours in a day. There's only so much they can do that we aren't seeing.

I'd love to send her a Wiggles DVD, but then I suppose that would encourage evil dancing and who knows where that might lead ... ????

My dad read an article years ago that talked about how many minutes dads actually spend with their kids each day (on an average) It was something like 5 minutes a day or sometimes not at all. He made a concious decision then to make an effort to really spend time with each of us (4) kids. He even went so far as to write it down in his daytimer (little organizer book he carried with him!) I didn't know about this until I was an adult, but my dad really did make a point to seek us out individually and spend time with us. With his job he was sometimes gone for days at a time for 3 years, but we always knew we were important to him.

How does this translate to the Duggars? Well, as posted it is likely very difficult for each one to daily get one on one time with either or both parents. But, if you consider how much time in your own families you or your spouse has that kind of time you will probably recognize that sometimes it is difficult even in a much smaller family too. I think the most important thing is that as long as the parents recognize the need for that time with their kids and find ways to make it happen then it wont be the number of minutes spent in a day with him/or but how the child feels at the end of the day.
Again, in the Duggar family this would be a big challange but as long as each one feels good about their relationship with mom and dad and not overlooked then they should be just fine. The problem is that some kids are naturally more "needy" than other just as certian ages are more "needy" than others. Little ones are needy because they have physical needs that need to be attended to and because they are at an age where so much is taught and learned. Older kids have different needs - mostly someone to talk to, answer questions they have about growing up, dreams, plans, etc. Some older kids are more private about their feelings/thoughts while others need to talk more. As parents we need to make the effort to meet the needs of all our kids and recognize when someone is feeling shorted. (the saying "the sqeaky wheel gets the grease" is true so we have to remember our kids that aren't squeaking cuz they need out attention too they just may know know how to ask for it!)

Correction: In my last post, I meant to say "can't", not "can".

I see what you're saying kb, and I agree, a lot of parents don't spend one-on-one time with their kids. I don't consider myself lucky that I did - throughout my years growing up, I should add - only because that's how my whole extended family operated, and that's how my friends' families operated, so to me, that is the norm. But perhaps you're right, and it's not the norm.

My message doesn't change though. All parents should make time for their children, and they should make time to be alone with each child. It bothers me that the Duggars have a sign-up sheet for their children. Seems like a giant, screaming sign that they a) have more kids than they can handle and b) they put the onus of one-on-one time onto the kids, instead of on themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by jaykay1:
How do we know that Jennifer doesn't get some of the things posted? We only see a tiny piece of their lives on TV. For all I know she may get a regular snack time,get read illustrated books,and her parents do spend time with each child but we are not privy to thosose times.I have 4 kids and when they were all kids they loved to climb on the bed or couch, sometimes circled around me, and have me read to them. They just loved to be read to and if I excluded all but one child, it wouldn't have gone over well. When having general conversations about kids, I sometimes would say my oldest, the next-to-youngest,or my second son, etc.and just like others were refering to theirs. My 2nd daughter hated having her brushed by anyone.Some little girls are just rambuntious tomboys like my youngest sister was. I didn't take one child to the zoo without the others. I'd feel bad leaving the others behind. But when they got older, I did spend time alone with them. I had 6 siblings and my parents not only would've loved a small bus to take us places. I know a couple who had triplets after she already had three older children and they were able to take vacations driving cross country. They loved it. To each his own.

I have made a conscious effort to notice Jennifer whenever possible, and what I see is a little girl who, for the most part, seems very unhappy. She cries an awful lot and seems fearful at times. I attribute this to her shortened babyhood. And if I heard correctly, I think it was in the Noah's Ark episode that Michelle said she was concerned about Jennifer.

You know - I have no postive feelings left for Michelle because of this exact thing.

I just spent several days on vacation with only my daughter. My hubby and sons went home after 2 days and she and I went home 5 days later. It was amazing, even if she asked me so many "why" questions that I thought I would explode. (this was last week) The boys each have a vacation coming up with just 1 parent. They get to chose where they want to go at 10 and 15 and which parent to go with them on the first trip and then the 2nd parent on the 2nd trip. Only contingency is that is has to be in the cont. US. (PJ - daughter - will get this when she is over as well).

I also am sitting here at work feeling guilty because my boss harrassed me so much when I was out sick yesterday with PJ (she has a sinus infection) and even though she needed to be home another day, she had to go to work with Dad because I didn't feel like I could take another day off (after being off all last week on vacation). I am horrified to feel this way and am starting to consider my options because THIS isn't an option for me. I have oodles of days but can't even take them without getting a guilt trip (or a boss that spent the day cleaning up my desk and emailing me questions about things and leaving me 2, 2 page emails about what I needed to do first today - can you say control freak???). Come on better economy - it is time for me to change.

So as a working mother (oh - the horror), I spend way more time and energy on my children that she ever will. Mother of the year my behind. She doesn't mother. I like Bob's description of being the queen because that is how I see her acting more and more.

I am far from perfect but it is soooo clear to me how bad things have gotten in that house for those kids.

Laura

I think it was in the Vow Renewal (or, Vow Removal, according to Jessa) episode where Michelle was saying that she thought she was done with children, and that she thought that she was going to have to keep Jordyn in the "baby mode" longer than usual. Maybe that's what's going on here. As CalicoCat said, perhaps Jennifer's babyhood was cut short. I think that all the kids seem relatively ok now, but I wonder what they're going to be like in 20 years. Maybe fine...but maybe not.

IMO,Fundie families-the hard core ones,at least-live in a different time period when it comes to children;They have the 19th century mentality that children are little people who can contribute to the family and know they are loved without being fawned over,petted, and being the center of attention.So they get independant and self reliant,tough-Johanna Duggar,for example-early.And thats okay.It's more old fashioned than the kind of 'close' mothering mentioned on this board but no less correct and it works for them,from what can be observed at least.

Being an attentive mother doesn't mean you wont raise strong, independent children. Michelle doesn't fawn - that is for sure, but when your kids call for someone else when they are hurt or sick, that is proof that someone else is giving them their main care and support.

My children are quite independent. They are responsible for all sorts of things in their lives, get to make all the age appropriate decisions that I can come up with and also get to suffer the consequences of those decisions. They can even choose to participate in the household or not and if they choose not, there are consequences to that as well which sometimes are worth it to them to "rebel" a bit and suffer. I am ok with that to.

Children don't need to be fawned over. They need to be supported. They need to know that someone is there for them at all times when they have a problem or need help. They need to know that they can make mistakes and still be loved. They need to know that there is always someone out there in their corner. These things should start with Mom and Dad and not siblings or others. (I have the same arguement for grandma's raising their grandchildren. They love those children and quite often do well, but it really peeves me that the mother and father are not responsible enough parents to do their job!!!)

Drives me crazy to see Michelle and Jim Bob getting awards for being such good parents when neither of them parent. Jim Bob only steps in for the fun things. He doesn't help around the house. He doesn't participate in any discipline we see. He doesn't take care of the needs of his children on a daily basis. He reminds me of a divorced parent who doesn't know how to take care of his children on the weekends when they are with him. Parent of the year? Hardly.

LLL

Johanna called for Mama when she was playing sick-Jana herself said Johanna was being dramatic so I would not have gone to her either.

quote:

Originally posted by katrina28:
Johanna called for Mama when she was playing sick-Jana herself said Johanna was being dramatic so I would not have gone to her either.

Playing sick? She vomited. Of course she wanted her mother. You wouldn't have gone to your three year old when she is throwing up? Nice.

Just goes to show that Michelle does not have enough time for one on one time with the kids. It's sad when a little kid is sick and mom doesn't have enough time to spend with her. I think the only time any of the kids got any time with her is when they were babies and she was nursing them. Once they are weaned they are sent to their buddy to raise them.

quote:

Originally posted by katrina28:
Johanna called for Mama when she was playing sick-Jana herself said Johanna was being dramatic so I would not have gone to her either.

Katrina - do you have children? I can't imagine any mother who loves their child not going to them when they are sick. I know that almost every time mine are ill, I am probably going to get it and I still sit and hold them for hours and clean up any messes, etc.

I might ask my boys to help by bringing me a towel or something, but in no way is it their responsibility to take care of their sick siblings.

LLL

If a child repeatedly did some thing to get attention and I knew it, I certainly would not cater to them.Again,watch the show and listen to Jana.She dosen't seem that concerned, either,

I watched that episode with Jennifer crying "Mama" when she was sick...but, was I not paying close enough attention when I watched it again on Comcast On Demand and noticed that that part seems to have been cut out? Has anyone else noticed any editing after the show airs on TLC?

I've also been around kids who when they cry too much it actually makes them start gagging and vomiting. So, she might have been feeling cranky and maybe not "normal" and by crying she made herself throw up. Some kids do cry for attention even if they are already getting plenty of attention.

quote:

Originally posted by katrina28:
If a child repeatedly did some thing to get attention and I knew it, I certainly would not cater to them.Again,watch the show and listen to Jana.She dosen't seem that concerned, either,

You are taking your tips on raising a child and child behavior from Jana, who is close to 20 years old. That is just so wrong.

Oh - and btw - how did she get to know so much about raising children? You insist that she doesn't raise her siblings. You don't learn things about children and their behaviors to that extent until you are older and have the responsibility yourself unless you are forced to raised you siblings!

Laura

quote:

Originally posted by chrislukas:
I've also been around kids who when they cry too much it actually makes them start gagging and vomiting. So, she might have been feeling cranky and maybe not "normal" and by crying she made herself throw up. Some kids do cry for attention even if they are already getting plenty of attention.

I have one who has done that. There are many kids who will do whatever to get attention (any attention is better than none) and even if they are getting plenty of attention they do it anyway. Hence shows like Supernanny !

quote:

Originally posted by mom9900:

quote:

Originally posted by chrislukas:
I've also been around kids who when they cry too much it actually makes them start gagging and vomiting. So, she might have been feeling cranky and maybe not "normal" and by crying she made herself throw up. Some kids do cry for attention even if they are already getting plenty of attention.

I have one who has done that. There are many kids who will do whatever to get attention (any attention is better than none) and even if they are getting plenty of attention they do it anyway. Hence shows like Supernanny !

If a child is crying because they want attention, then I give them attention. What is so complicated about that?

If a child is crying so much that she makes herself sick, that is a problem. Goes to show you they have too many kids to give them all any kind of individual attention. As far as Jana saying she was just being dramatic, she is not that child's mother. Any decent mother would have took the time to check on her own child to make sure she was ok.

quote:

Originally posted by aj741852:
whatever michelle and JB do the best they can most parents with 2 or 3 kids dont even sit and brush their childs hair or give them a regular bath.

I have 3 kids and when they were younger, I made sure they each got individual attention. This included bath time, sitting them on my lap to brush their hair and then books at bedtime.

quote:

If a child is crying because they want attention, then I give them attention. What is so complicated about that?

No one said it was complicated but giving attention to a child who is crying for no legitimate reason is rewarding bad behavior. Children should be rewarded for good behavior and not for bad behavior.

So a child crying for some attention from her mother is bad behavior?

quote:

So a child crying for some attention from her mother is bad behavior?

It can be, yes.

In what situation would you find a child crying for mom's attention to be bad behavior?

quote:

In what situation would you find a child crying for mom's attention to be bad behavior?

When they have been put to bed and know they are supposed to go to sleep, during church or other times when they have been taught to be quiet, when they have no reason to cry and are just trying to get their own way, when they know mom is in the middle of something and they choose to whine and cry anyway... there's a few for you. I am talking about a child that is old enough to understand what is expected of them, I'm not talking about newborns here. Evidently you've never been around little kids who use crying as a way to manipulate their parents.

I guess my kids never felt so neglected that they felt the need to cry so hard that they made themselves sick. With 17 siblings I am sure the younger ones feel neglected at times and just want some one on one attention from mom or dad, not their "buddy". It's just so sad.

quote:

Originally posted by chrislukas:

quote:

In what situation would you find a child crying for mom's attention to be bad behavior?

When they have been put to bed and know they are supposed to go to sleep, during church or other times when they have been taught to be quiet, when they have no reason to cry and are just trying to get their own way, when they know mom is in the middle of something and they choose to whine and cry anyway... there's a few for you. I am talking about a child that is old enough to understand what is expected of them, I'm not talking about newborns here. Evidently you've never been around little kids who use crying as a way to manipulate their parents.

Jennifer was not crying in any of those places. She seems to be crying or sad whenever the camera is on her. Maybe a nice, long afternoon with Michelle (not her "buddy") reading books, talking, singing would help put a smile on that little girl's face.

Personally, I think if a child needs attention, they need attention. They are only little once, and I don't believe too much attention can spoil a child. Too many material things is what spoils a kid. Not too much love.

That is how I raised my kids, and they are doing just fine. Kids need their mother a lot. What is the point of keeping them out of daycare (as you so often recommend) if you are going to disregard their need for attention and love ("Well, I have to pay the bills, so you must be manipulating me. . . ")

quote:

Jennifer was not crying in any of those places. She seems to be crying or sad whenever the camera is on her. Maybe a nice, long afternoon with Michelle (not her "buddy") reading books, talking, singing would help put a smile on that little girl's face.

Perhaps she just doesn't like the camermen or crew. Perhaps she is a child that is just cranky a lot. We don't know. I have a great-nephew who is 6 now and a very happy, smiley kid. But from birth to about age 5 he always looked grumpy was withdrawn and cried a lot. His mom gave him tons of attention and spent a lot of one on one time with him and it made no difference. Then at some point after age five he just changed and he doesn't have scowl on his face anymore, he is very outgoing and smiles and laughs a lot. Prior to this change, she had consulted a doctor and a child psychologist and they both told her the same thing: that there was nothing wrong with him and it was quite possible he would outgrow it. Which is exactly what happened. So maybe that is Jennifer's problem as well.

quote:

Originally posted by chrislukas:

quote:

Jennifer was not crying in any of those places. She seems to be crying or sad whenever the camera is on her. Maybe a nice, long afternoon with Michelle (not her "buddy") reading books, talking, singing would help put a smile on that little girl's face.

Perhaps she just doesn't like the camermen or crew. Perhaps she is a child that is just cranky a lot. We don't know. I have a great-nephew who is 6 now and a very happy, smiley kid. But from birth to about age 5 he always looked grumpy was withdrawn and cried a lot. His mom gave him tons of attention and spent a lot of one on one time with him and it made no difference. Then at some point after age five he just changed and he doesn't have scowl on his face anymore, he is very outgoing and smiles and laughs a lot. Prior to this change, she had consulted a doctor and a child psychologist and they both told her the same thing: that there was nothing wrong with him and it was quite possible he would outgrow it. Which is exactly what happened. So maybe that is Jennifer's problem as well.

Well, I certainly hope so.

Did your nephew spend months of the year traveling on a bus with 22 other people, when he was a toddler? Does he have 17 brothers and sisters competing for his mom's attention? Is he primarily cared for by a teenager? Did he spend a month at a home construction site with one bathroom and 55 people? Is his life frequently filmed by cameramen?

I think these things have to be factored in, in Jennifer's case. They may be a contributing factor.

She seemed happier this last episode,FWIW.The Duggar children are pretty easy going and upbeat either thru nature or upbringing so I don't see Jenn being so much different.

quote:

Wow. I'm clearly alone here but I wanted to give her a smack upside the head on the couple of episodes I saw.

LOL, I've often felt the same way but didn't voice it here as everyone seems to think she's so neglected, hah!

quote:

Originally posted by WhiteFreesia:
Wow. I'm clearly alone here but I wanted to give her a smack upside the head on the couple of episodes I saw. She seemed like a spoiled brat to me. JB was giving her tons of one-on-one and trying to make her smile and laugh in both episodes. She wanted nothing to do w/ him and just had tantrums.

I don't recall Michele w/ her though.

And the sick episode, I don't think she was faking. They said there was a bug going through the family.

Yes, I'm sure smacking her in the head would make her stop crying and be happy.

She should really stop and be grateful that JB is giving her something she doesn't want--a ride on a pony, a chance to touch his beard.

It doesn't matter what she wants. It matters what he wants to do.

quote:

Originally posted by chrislukas:

quote:

Wow. I'm clearly alone here but I wanted to give her a smack upside the head on the couple of episodes I saw.

LOL, I've often felt the same way but didn't voice it here as everyone seems to think she's so neglected, hah!

Hah! Hah hah hah! Let's smack a two year old.

So you think Jennifer is not getting smacked enough?

Snacking a two year old because she does not to ride a pony is sick. Smacking a two year old for any reason is sick.

I would never 'snack' on a two year old either esp not a sour puss like Jennifer,LOL, but for once i agree with you-smacking is counter productive.

I wouldn't hesitate to give a two-year a swat on the bottom. They are old enough to understand right from wrong. I wouldn't do that for a child being tired, hungry, frightened, etc. But sometimes even a 2 year old can be willful and disobedient and that, in my opinion, deserves a swat.

a baby brother or sister.

DONE!

quote:

Wow. I'm clearly alone here but I wanted to give her a smack upside the head on the couple of episodes I saw.

quote:

Originally posted by chrislukas:
LOL, I've often felt the same way but didn't voice it here as everyone seems to think she's so neglected, hah!

You'd smack a two year old "upside the head"?