Firstly can I say when I stumbled across this show only fairly recently it was like seeing a car accident, sickening and extremely troubling but you just can't look away. Then I found this discussion board and was so relieved to discover the same things that trouble me about this family are the same things many others have discussed. Thank God common sense prevails in most of us and we can see this family for what they truly are, hypocrites who conveniently twist God's word to suit themselves. JB's attitude to his wife and daughters is no different to the ideals Islam holds high. I do not believe God in heaven is smiling down on this family. They will have plenty to answer for when the time comes. What is really in their hearts is not what they portray on this show.
Anyway, on the subject of their anti-birth control stance. How naive and uneducated are these people? To stand up in church and preach their anti-birth control message is the most irresponsible thing I've seen anyone do in ages. There are some serious psychological issues that Michelle in particular needs to address (i.e. dealing with miscarriage) To blame birth control pills for that long ago miscarriage is insane! One in three pregnancies ends in miscarriage for reasons not yet fully understood, birth control pills is not one of them!! They should not be preaching this message to young people in churches who may just naively take this on board and in the end further increase this already over populated world. Like I said, they will have a lot to answer for when the time comes.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: mod_kelly,
I highly disagree. How many children they have is soley up to them and there has been differing opinions in the medical community re: long term usage of the BC pill and the inability of a woman to carry a fetus to term.
Irresponsible of them to go into churches and talk about this??
No it is irresponsible of schools to go in behind parents backs and educate the kids on how to use a condom. Or any of the other garbage they want to tell kids in the name of "safe sex education".
What the Duggars are advocating is abstinence and they are telling what they have done in their family in regards to letting God choose the size of their family.
Thank God for them and their message of abstinence in this age of do what feels good and to HELL with the consequences.
There is alot that many will have to answer for in life, and the doctors who perform the abortions and the clinics that give out BC pills to teenagers are in that line as well.
Originally posted by mom9900: I highly disagree. How many children they have is soley up to them and there has been differing opinions in the medical community re: long term usage of the BC pill and the inability of a woman to carry a fetus to term.
Irresponsible of them to go into churches and talk about this??
No it is irresponsible of schools to go in behind parents backs and educate the kids on how to use a condom. Or any of the other garbage they want to tell kids in the name of "safe sex education".
What the Duggars are advocating is abstinence and they are telling what they have done in their family in regards to letting God choose the size of their family.
Thank God for them and their message of abstinence in this age of do what feels good and to HELL with the consequences.
I think JB is doing what feels good and to hell with the consequences to Michelle's body, to the planet, to the older girls who work their tails off, to the little ones who need individual attention.
JB is a married man and Michelle is his wife so if they want to do what feels good they know the consequences and fully want the blessings given them. Michelle seems to be fine and seems to want the babies just as much as JB.
And as far as the enviroment, the Duggars aren't doing anything to the environment that families across America aren't doing. They are just the ones being held up as an example. The environment will still be here after the Duggars so I could care less about that.
First, I don't remember then preaching anything at churches other than telling their own personal testamony and explaining the choices they've made.
Secondly, I think it is more a mindset about "family planning" than actually "anti-birth control." In our society many people "plan" their families. We plan how many kids we'd like to have. We plan when to have them (as best we can) and we plan to stop having children when we've accomplished the other goals in our plan (reached the number we decided we wanted, etc.)
My understanding of what the Duggars have said is that rather than plan these things out themselves, they choose to allow/accept God's plan for thier family.
I can't say whether they actively pursue trying to get pregant rather than "if it happens it happens," but if they are trusting that God will give them the family He planned for them then it is logical for them to avoid birth control.
Another way to think of it is this. If God is really in control of opening or closing the womb, then no conception can take place without His consent or deliberate decision. (does it rain as a result of the plan God put into effect regarding the weather cycle or only when He intervenes? or a combination of both???) Following the logic that conception can only take place if He wills it, then it would be impossible for conception to take place outside His will and therefore BC would be unnecessary.
I think the question needs to be asked (althought I'm sure there will be many different answers) is: Does conception take place as a natural consequence of an "act of nature" or is God a part of the equation?
When my daughter was little she was running and lost her balance. She fell and skinned her knee. It was a natural consequense of her running too fast. SHe was not being punished, it was just the laws of nature working the way God set in motion. Now, could God have intervene and stopped her from being hurt? Yes, but most of the time God lets us live within the system He set up. He can and does intervene when He wants too, but the question here is, how does this apply to the whole Family Planning issue?
I think the Duggars have chosen to trust God to give then the family He desires and leave it up to Him to open or close their womb. Other Christians make those desisions for themselves, and still others "consult" God when making these desicions and make their choices regarding family planning based on how they feel God is leading them.
All of this is personal and I believe it is between each couple and God. (for those who have a different belief then I'm sure there are additional things they consider as they make their decisions.) In any case, the point of my post was to try and clarify (or question?) where the Duggars are coming from or to share some insight that may not have been brought up before.
Oh, and just to make it clear, I am not suggesting I have any answers to the above mentioned questions. I posed them to be thought provoking. I think there will be many people with their own answers - although I'd love to hear the Duggars answers!
Originally posted by aussiegirl24: Anyway, on the subject of their anti-birth control stance. How naive and uneducated are these people?
One does not have to be naive and uneducated to disapprove of (and not use) birth control.
The Catholic Church still teaches that artificial contraception is inherently sinful. Until early in the 20th century, all protestant Christian denominations were in unanimous agreement with the Catholic Church's unchanging teaching. It was not until the 1930 Lambeth Conference that the Anglican Church, in response to growing social pressure, first approved artificial birth control in limited circumstances.
Not everyone who doesn't use birth control has 19+ children, though large families were much more common in the past. I have been married three months longer than Jim Bob and Michelle and have only two children. I know two other families who have been married the same amount of time, who also leave their family planning "up to God"; one has 10 children, the other nine.
As for the accusation that the Duggars "conveniently twist God's word", as a Catholic I obviously don't agree with their theology, but my understanding is that protestant denominations generally disagree on what exactly God's word says. Why else would there be so many of them?
Perhaps a better question might be to ask why the protestant denominations departed from their own historic stance against artificial contraception?
Natural Family Planning however is not frowned upon in the Catholic religion. However, if you read some of the opinions among the conservative evangelical set, they look upon natural family planning as sinful because it too goes against God's will. Also, I as a Catholic find the stance that BC (barrier methods, pills, and sterilization) are sinful, but artificial means to achieve pregnancy are okay. One interferes with God's will and the other does not?
I find it interesting that the "moderate" Christians on this board, and elsewhere, are far more radical than the Muslim moderates out there. They don't have issues with birth control, and it's very logical why they don't. The logic goes:
God is all powerful. No birth control is perfect. If God wants you to have kid - to "gift" you with one - you're going to have one. Nothing stop God's will. End of story.
Pretty simple. It always seemed to me that many Christians out there were imagining that humans could superceed God's will. I always thought that it was very arrogant - and against all teachings - to think that humans were more powerful than God.
Handing over control of your reproduction of God is just throwing away all responsibility. It's very simple math: you have s*x without any protection, and you will eventually get pregnant. The Duggars know this. They know exactly what the outcome could be every time they sleep together.
As for BC pills, there are many reasons a teen could be taking them that don't involve actually birth control. BC pills aren't abortion pills. They aren't "evilly" killing fetuses. Besides, mom9900, you said that kids are only blessings when the parents are married. Wouldn't you then not want teens to get pregnant? (Unless that teen is married, and then I guess it would be ok.) In America, studies constantly prove that abstinence education doesn't work. So wouldn't you want to prevent these non-blessing kids from coming into the world?
Can you provide a link, mom9900 to the studies that show that long term pill use leads to the inability of the woman to carry to term? I have never heard of this before, and I am skeptical.
One more thing, mom9900. Do you care about your neighbors? Your community? The future of your grandchildren (someday)? Yes? Then why do you disdain being environmentally responsible? Why do you say that you could care less about the world that we, your neighbors, live in?
1989KB, those are provacative questions! Conc3ption happens when a woman ovulates and and the sp3rm reaches the egg at the right time. Unfortuneately, this can happen in cases of rap3. I don't think it's "God's will" for the rap3 to have occurred. ( However, blame lies solely on the r@pist..not the mother or the child.) No choice is involved there, and it is a totally separate situation than other situations of " free will." Anytime you enage in "relations" during ovulation, a pregnancy can result. God gave people the choice ( free will) as to when to and when not to. I personally don't agree with abortion, but I do agree with birth control- preventing conception, through the pill, a shot, c0nd0ms, steriliz@tion, etc....I don't know if anyone can say what "God's will" is, because we are human. Did God "will" the Holocaust? What about child mol3station, murd3r, slav3ry, drug addition, etc...all part of " the grand plan?" I don't think so. I think that's what happens when "free will" interferes with God's plan. But, of course, that's my opinion. In the days of old we didn't have the technology and the advancements we do of today. People were old if they made it to 40 or 50. Childbirth was life threatening to the mom and baby. As a people, we have advanced. Our life expectancy has sky rocketed, but our birth rates are declining- by choice. We don't need to breed to ensure the survival of the species like animals do. We are more into quality of life, self fulfillment, bettering society, etc instead of just breeding and surviving. We are an advanced society and culture. With today's technology, if everybody bred like the Duggars, we'd be in trouble... We wouldn't have enough land, food , or clean water to support everyone. ( not to mention the waste and pollution this would create.) I don't think people take into account because people choose not to live this lifestyle it actually enables the Duggars and people of this belief system to do so without negatively impacting the world too greatly. THere's my 2 cents...well, maybe it's a quarter's worth!!
the USA has the highest rate of teen and unplanned pregnancies in all of the industrialized world. Lots of people would blame that on "abstinence only" s3x education.
Originally posted by mom9900: I highly disagree. How many children they have is soley up to them and there has been differing opinions in the medical community re: long term usage of the BC pill and the inability of a woman to carry a fetus to term.
Irresponsible of them to go into churches and talk about this??
No it is irresponsible of schools to go in behind parents backs and educate the kids on how to use a condom. Or any of the other garbage they want to tell kids in the name of "safe sex education".
What the Duggars are advocating is abstinence and they are telling what they have done in their family in regards to letting God choose the size of their family.
Thank God for them and their message of abstinence in this age of do what feels good and to HELL with the consequences.
There is alot that many will have to answer for in life, and the doctors who perform the abortions and the clinics that give out BC pills to teenagers are in that line as well.
Yes it is irresponsible for them to go into churches and blame birth control pills for that miscarriage. Some will take this to be gospel, stop using birth control and unwanted pregnancies will be the result, more children born to parents unable or unwilling to raise them. Preaching/speaking/testimony, call it what you will, the subject of not using birth control and blaming it for the miscarriage was discussed when they visited a church in San Francisco (I think it was) and the unfounded reasons for not using it. Most arrogant of us humans to decide what is God's will and what is not. Why would God punish us for using birth control? Makes no sense. It's simply responsibility shifting, something we're all pretty good at these days.
I have never understood why people talk about hating "abortion doctors." Those men and women are performing a procedure that someone asked for. It's not like they are abducting pregnant women off the street, holding them down and forcing an abortion on them. They are providing a service for which there is a demand. Like it or not.
I agree. Personally, I am pro-choice. I think it is important for women to have the choice whether to carry a pregnancy to term or not, especially in cases of rape, incest or just for a personal decision.
I don't see why any aspect of my private life or reproductive cycle is anybody's business buy my own.
I also cannot unerstand why proponents of small government and less governmental influence or interference want to bring the government into my bedroom or medicine cabinet or my private reporductive world to begin with. You don't want government interfereing in your life? Then stay out of mine!
I have always felt that Michelle's cycles are very much known in that houseshold that that pregnancies are intentional. Michelle has even said that the girls KNOW when she cycles so that they start watching the calendar after the clensing period just "waiting" for the next announcement.
I believe that Michelle and Jim Bob both like the limelight now and what better way to keep themsevles in it than to have more and more. Michelle also shows signs of having issues with having babies. They are not using the brains God provided them.
I like the skinned knee analogy and I fully believe that God expects us to use our brains. I think there will be a lot of disappointment when they are finally standing before God and he asks why and if they really believe that they have been good parents to their children, etc.
My personal opinion of course but if God didn't want people using birth control, then why did he give us evolving brains? The Duggars believe in medical intervention when ill but not when getting pregnant? If God truly controls all and all is God's will then why did they take the last baby to the hospital not long after she was born? Shouldn't they have just stayed at home to see if God would heal her? (which would be crazy to me)
When your children know your cycle, then everyone in the house knows and you could avoid it if you wanted. I agree it is nature that you get pregnant if you have sex when you are ovulating. God's will would be NOT having sex when ovulating and getting pregnant anyway in my book.
Very well put. I think Michelle is somewhat addicted to having babies. I also think it is kind of weird that the girls keep track of her cycle. One has to wonder if Michelle keeps track of the girl's cycles also so that when they are married off she can let them know when it is the best time to have relations to get pregnant. Michelle and Jim Bob absolutely like the limelight. Why else would they choose to announce each pregnancy in the media?
I have never used any birth control whatsoever. We have four children and have been married for 17 years. That is our choice as a married couple. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you. I don't know why someone who doesn't use birth control is so psychologically damaged and uneducated. It's a choice. My reproductive choice. If you stand for choice, then that includes all choice, not just what you choose and what you feel is right.
Jim Bob and Michelle speak in churches who have asked them to come and speak about their life, their choices and their experiences. No one is forced to listen to them. I'm guessing that they are speaking to people who hold the same views as the Duggars and want to hear them.
I think it is very harsh to paint with such a broad stroke regarding religions and individuals who don't use birth control.
We all have unique ideas, thoughts and opinions. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree, it is odd to me that her cycles are known to everyone in the house. For me, that is a bit more private information.
I do agree, they seem to be soaking up the limelight!
However, they had a really large family before TLC started the series. They were a large family and on a rather limited budget. Did you see the house they used to live in? Whoa, that was tight and they still kept having more children so I guess they are really living their life on what they feel is the right path.
I have no issue with anyone not using birth control. However, when you have 18+ children, you are INTENTIONALLY getting pregnant or else there is some weird "gotta have relations every day" thing going on. I am all for having relations, but I just don't see this being about that.
I think there might be some twisted thing going on with Michelle and Jim Bob where they can ONLY have relations IF they are trying to create a child. That said, since they know when Michelle's cycles are, they seem to be very darn successful.
I would suspect that you and your husband have a good relationship which probably means that you have what would be considered a "normal" life in the bedroom. If you chose to leave things up to God and not use birth control, not track your cycles and not attempt to get pregnant that is great and it worked for you in a way that appears to make you happy.
My point is that I do not believe that Jim Bob and Michelle are allowing God to be their family planner. I believe that they KNOW when she is ovulating and they have relations intentionally during that time. Leaving it up to God means not doing anything to prevent but also not doing anything to "help".
I also dont think that anyone would have any trouble with Jim Bob and Michelle spreading their faith. I have a problem with them spouting bad information about birth control. If they don't believe in birth control, fine but that isn't their message. Their message is that it caused Michelle's miscarriage and shouldn't be used as it is a form of abortion.
"After losing our baby, we decided to let God decide how many more we would have." ok - sounds good (except that they are NOT leaving it up to God in my eyes as I stated above) "Then, Michelle went back on the pill, but she conceived and had a miscarriage. At that point they talked with a Christian medical doctor and read the fine print in the contraceptives package. They found that while taking the pill you can get pregnant and then miscarry." I have a problem with this. "They realized that their selfish actions had taken the life of their child. They prayed and asked God to forgive them, and to teach them to love children like He loves children. They asked God to bless them with as many children as He saw fit in His timing. Right after that Michelle got pregnant with twins!" I have a big problem with this as well and Michelle's opinion where she has stated that women who are having trouble conceving should pray to God to open their wombs.
I find it extremely ODD that the older girls know Michelle's cycle. That has to be one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard Michelle say, and she says a lot of strange things, IMO.
I have a great aunt and uncle who never used BC. They were married 5 years before they had their first child. THey went on to have a total of 4 kids.... all of them 5 years apart so that by the time the fourth one was born the first was 20 and they'd been married 25 years!
Not using BC or family planning doesn't equate to large families. The common denominator is usually a mindset towards children/God's conviction for a couple.
I look at the birth control issue in this way. Those who refuse to use it, run the risk of having a truck load (like the Duggars). That is a very selfish way to live if you want to devote time, energy, & financial resources to the kids you already have. That is what so many fail to see. I think it's kind of a hoot that Evangelicals thumb their nose at the Catholics on this issue. For starters, I know very few Catholics who don't use birth control. Even some who use natural family planning methods don't wind up with a large number of children. In other words, they use the brains God gave them so as NOT to have more kids than they can reasonably take care of. But then, I see the flip side of it in that Jim Bob isn't willing to trust God for his sex drive. If he was, then they likely would not have 19 kids. The Duggar's pick & choose what they want as far as trusting God goes. They don't want to do without sex but then they use the excuse that God is keeping Michelle pregnant. I detest the notion that it's anyone other than Jim Bob who keeps Michelle spouting out babies. To think otherwise is to live in the delusional world of the Duggar's; one that tries to make themselves look "holy" by the number of kids they have. It's like he is flaunting his offspring or ability to impregnate Michelle so many times. Is that something to be bragging about? Not to my way of thinking and not to the way of most level-headed Christians. It's beyond insulting to associate the birth control issue with Christianity because it's the same as saying God will provide while refusing to look for a job. How pathetic and selfish that mind-set is.
Isn't that accurate? If you do get pregnant and are taking birth control pill, you can miscarry.
Many years ago, I read up on birth control pills and read that small print. I came to that conclusion way before anyone ever heard of the Duggars.
I guess we all need to google now.
I have no idea why Michelle keeps getting pregnant (aside from the obvious reason). Are they deliberately doing it on her day? Only those two and God know the answer to that question. Maybe they have relations every single night and that would explain it?
I have plenty of friends who don't use any birth control and no one has 18 children.
I really don't know.
I also thought it was odd that they said "oh, we got pregnant on Father's Day". That is a cute story but not to tell the entire world that. I guess we all know what their Father's Day celebration entailed.
I've posted this before but guess I will throw it out here again.
The insert of the BC pill explains how the pill funcions. The primary function is to supress ovulation. (the % of how successful this is depends upon the type of pill and does vary greatly) The second funcion is to thicken the cervical mucus to slow down the little swimmers so they have a harder time getting to their destination. The final function is to change the living in the uterus so that in the event conception occurs, the fertilized egg is unlikely to be able to attach itself and continue to grow. (the uterus becomes a "hostile envirnment")
I assume this was the information the Duggars speak of. The pill is actually an "abortifacient" since it doesn't necessarily prevent conception - just implantaion. However using the term miscarriage is more polite and I assume that's why they say it.
Now, having said all that, as stated, the percentages of breakthru ovulation vary depending upon the type of pill and there's no way to know ahead of time if you've ovulated.
Evidently the Duggars were not aware of how the pill functioned and once they learned decided they were not comfortable with the risk of breakthru ovulation and possible conception. That is a choise they made for themselves. (and were "greived" that they hadn't know ahead of time or they likely would have made other choices)
As long as women/couples are aware of how the pill (and any other chemical method works) then they can make informed choices. If the risk level is such that they feel ok with it, then at least they have thought about it and determined the risk was worth it. If a couple does not take the time to learn about how thier chosen method works and find out later they don't agree with it, then they might feel badly - as the Duggars did - but then again, they hadn't reseached ahead of time so should accept that they made a mistake and move on. If the loss of that baby somehow caused her to "need" to have children then I would potlitely suggest she needs to see a councelor. If the infomation truely did just cause them to leave their family size up to God, then I will not critize them for living out their convictions.
The subject of birth control is a very complicated one.
Is it God creating the babies or is it JB & Michelle's activity that keeps creating the babies? It's kind of a mix of both. JB & Michelle keep having relations and God keeps sending them babies. (assuming you believe in God and are of that belief system). On the other hand, plenty of people have plenty of relaitons and don't get pregnant and deal with infertility. So, God certainly is in charge there. And we all know you can use birth control and have a little surpise.
And yes, if JB & M stopped the relations, the babies would stop. So, you are in control somewhat and not in control in other ways.
I don't think this will ever really be solved.
It is an interesting discussion though.
I cannot answer those questions for anyone else. For me, this is what we choose to do. Other people can choose what they want.
For Jim Bob and Michelle, they have decided that X is their belief system and they share how they came to that conclusion. No harm in that...it's just an opinion.
That is how I understood it but couldn't explain it as well or find an article to post that was so easy to read.
I assume JB & Michelle feel regret over this and decided to do things differently after that loss. It changed their opnions on birth control in general, I guess.
I don't know if Michelle has some sort of baby addiction or what? She certainly seems a bit over excited with infants but maybe she trying to let people know that she is happy about this baby and not like "oh, no, not another one!". I guess it's better than listening to someone complain about their pregnancy and unwanted child.
Maybe we are all getting too cynical? The woman is excited to be having a child and maybe that is the end of it. Babies are really fun and I'd love to have more children too.
I agree with your descriptions 1989 but it isn't the "reasoning" the Duggars use. They say that they CAUSED their miscarriage by taking the pill. If that was the case (and technically it could be if Michelle had break through ovulation BEFORE this pregnancy), then they would have never known she was pregnant. You even have to wait NOW until you miss your cycle to get enough hormone in tests to let you know. If the pill worked for them as an abortifacient then they would not have known they were pregnant.
Again, if they said that they didn't understand how the pill worked and stopped using it once they understood this, then fine. They don't. They insist that it CAUSED the miscarriage.
I agree with your descriptions 1989 but it isn't the "reasoning" the Duggars use. They say that they CAUSED their miscarriage by taking the pill. If that was the case (and technically it could be if Michelle had break through ovulation BEFORE this pregnancy), then they would have never known she was pregnant. You even have to wait NOW until you miss your cycle to get enough hormone in tests to let you know. If the pill worked for them as an abortifacient then they would not have known they were pregnant.
Again, if they said that they didn't understand how the pill worked and stopped using it once they understood this, then fine. They don't. They insist that it CAUSED the miscarriage.
If there's a breakthrough ovulation, and if that egg gets fertilized, if it doesn't ever implant, then medically, you weren't pregnant in the first place. You would never know you had shed a fertilized egg, because the chain of changes that happen upon implantation wouldn't ever happen. More than like you'd never even bleed, so you wouldn't know there was anything happening at all. If you read the literature that comes with the pill, it says that it will not cause an abortion. If you get pregnant, taking the pill won't cause the body to abort (miscarry). The doctor who told the Duggars that had very questionable ethics, telling them misinformation like that.
I agree. When conceptions occurs without implantation the women never knows. If implantation occurs (and we know this sometimes happens) and the women then realizes she's pregnant then it's a different situation. I do know they say you should stop taking the pill immediately if you discover you're pregnant while on it. Perhaps what was said and what the Duggars understood are two different things?
Originally posted by mom9900: I highly disagree. How many children they have is soley up to them and there has been differing opinions in the medical community re: long term usage of the BC pill and the inability of a woman to carry a fetus to term.
Irresponsible of them to go into churches and talk about this??
No it is irresponsible of schools to go in behind parents backs and educate the kids on how to use a condom. Or any of the other garbage they want to tell kids in the name of "safe sex education".
What the Duggars are advocating is abstinence and they are telling what they have done in their family in regards to letting God choose the size of their family.
Thank God for them and their message of abstinence in this age of do what feels good and to HELL with the consequences.
There is alot that many will have to answer for in life, and the doctors who perform the abortions and the clinics that give out BC pills to teenagers are in that line as well.
mom9900, safer sex is education is EXTREMELY important. I do not want teenagers, kids, young adults etc. running around having s33x without knowing how to use proper protection. Protection decreases the risk of STDs, STIs, HIV?AIDS, UTIs and pregnancy. If people are going to do it, what is wrong with them being safe about it?
I don't understand people who preach anti-abortion but then say they aren't for birth control. If one was taking birth control in the first place, one would not need to consider having an abortion.
I think also that we often forget sometimes birth control is in some circumstance is a NECESSITY. I am a transplant patient and am on very potenet medications, that is why I take birth control. If I became pregnant now there would be a very high risk of miscarriage and other problems. When I am ready and can have my medications moved around so that it will be safe for me to carry a child, I will go off my birth control. I am on birth control BECAUSE I am responsible and BECAUSE I want to have children in the near future.
Birth control is not just for people who are unmarried, have casual s33x and don't want children.
Ugh, Mary, In rereading my post, I should've said something more like "there is not debate on birth control in your situation. You are right, It is a medical need"
I'm not sure if my post read that way and I wanted to clarify. I don't know if I can edit a post.
Anyway, I hope you are doing well medically. Take care...
Originally posted by chicagochris3: I find it extremely ODD that the older girls know Michelle's cycle. That has to be one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard Michelle say, and she says a lot of strange things, IMO.
I don't find it strange at all. Who do you suppose empties the trash cans from the bathrooms? The girls. They know when certain items are in the trash and when they are not.
When several girls/women live in the same house, it's not uncommon for them to get in sync with their cycles. My mother, sister and I did and since we all shared a bathroom, it was kind of hard to hide when it was that time of the month from anyone.
Originally posted by Blueberry6: If I remember right, Michelle said that her girls "watch the calendar like a hawk". I find that a bit odd...that they are like following her cycle.
But yes, you are right. If you live in the same house and share a bathroom, those things aren't very secret.
It depends HOW the girls know when her cycle is. If it's like common talk around the dinner table, uh, that is a bit off.
That's true, if they all keep their cycles marked on the same calendar and compare, that would be weird. Or if they sit around the table and ask, "Who started today?" That would creep me out.
I think I can clear up the "watching the calendar" debate. A while back someone posted links to the Pearls (if I remember correctly they are Quiverful leaders or people who write for the fundies). Anyway, there was mention in one of the articles about keeping a calendar on the refrigerator of the wife's cycles so that the husband "knows" when they can have sex so if things get heated in the bedroom the wife won't have to convince him that they can't, that he will just know. Which I guess comes in handy since she can't say no. The fact they keep a calendar on the fridge and everyone knows what it is for creeps me out. My daughters were mortified to think my husband and I were still "doing it," as most teenagers are.
Another point - most of the time women who are in the same family or work together have cycles that adjust and happen at the same time. It's a pheremone thing. So Michelle and all the girls are probably menstruating on the same cycle.
Thanks, blueberry I appreciate that. I think sometimes people forget that birth control can be something that is medically necessary. My friend had problems with her ovaries and she had the most painful cramps and the only thing that lessened her pain and heavy periods was being on birth control. Other instances like women undergoing treatment for a chronic health condition may need to be on BC as well.
The cycle thing is pretty gross to me too. I remember reading somewhere that the tracking of the cycle on the calendar was something the FLDS did as well. So, in my opinion, if they are doing this, they are intentionally getting themselves pregnant. Its not like they are having sex every other day or on random days.
I can't even imagine that. Really. A calandar on the fridge for anyone to see? I usually got to great effort to try and speak as neutrally as I can or at least politely, but this one is just too, too, .... I don't even have words for it. I can't imagine anyone finding this behavior acceptable. Not that I doubt you've read it somewhere since no sane person would actually make something like that up. ...... I just need to stop now because I'm truely distrubed by the whole idea. I sincerly hope this is not something the Duggars (or anyone for that matter) actually follow.
If being on birth control caused their miscarriage how do they explain all the miscarriages people have who weren't on BC? Isn't it something like 1 in every 4 or 5 conceptions end in a miscarriage? Their logic train has derailed on this one.
well they dont exactly have Science on their side. it's like the freaking Middle Ages, everything is "God's will", when a woman died in childbirth it wasn't because of an infection, it was "God's will". it really is a statistical rarity that she has not any miscarriages since that one. or maybe she has and hasn't realized it. sometimes the miscarriages are so early one might not even realize she is pregnant, and just think her period is a few weeks late.
Oh. My. Word. Let's see... This article just reinforced all my beliefs against submitting. (cringe) It also is a strong argument that the Duggars - if they follow something like this, which it sound as though they do - aren't leaving their conception "up to God". They are actively trying to conceive, and are succeeding quite well.
I personally don't agree with abortion, but I do agree with birth control- preventing conception, through the pill, a shot, c0nd0ms, steriliz@tion, etc....I don't know if anyone can say what "God's will" is, because we are human. Did God "will" the Holocaust? What about child mol3station, murd3r, slav3ry, drug addition, etc...all part of " the grand plan?" I don't think so. --------- in reply I have to hold onto the idea that things happen for a reason. I have lived through some awful things that made me who I am today. I am who I am because of my life. If these things were not for a lesson to me or someone else, then how do I live with THAT? As for family planning, it all happens when it should. An 'unwanted' pregnancy has been my biggest blessing. And the next three years I tried to get pregnant I needed to adjust. BUT I did have surgery to do what I could NOT to have more, later. My choice not to leave it up to fate, shouldn't we all have that choice?
Originally posted by cyndeecamden: I have heard Michelle talk about the "calender" on the refrigerator and that the girls watched it like a hawk.
I just assumed that Michelle maybe put a notation on it when she had her period or when the girls did.
I did wonder why such a private thing (to me) would be posted so everyone could see.
A calender to know when to conceive and putting it up for everyone to see is a bit much for me.
I would think that if you're going to keep a calender, you'd have it in your bedroom, not out in a public area for all of your family and guests to see. For such a modest family, they sure are open sometimes.
I have no idea what The No Greater Joy people are even talking about.
They are really just rambling. Taking your temperature is stupid? Counting days is stupid? But a calendar with pictures and colors is OK. No explanation either. Really now.
I am familiar with that Pearle family...I think they are doing more damage than good.
Not all people who are fundamental or leaning towards fundamentalism follow their ideas either.
I'm really hoping that Michelle has a simple calendar with little notation of when her cycle has started. I really hope there are not stickers, colors and such. I have their book, I'll take a look and see if it mentions any of that.
Can you provide a link, mom9900 to the studies that show that long term pill use leads to the inability of the woman to carry to term? I have never heard of this before, and I am skeptical.
One more thing, mom9900. Do you care about your neighbors? Your community? The future of your grandchildren (someday)? Yes? Then why do you disdain being environmentally responsible? Why do you say that you could care less about the world that we, your neighbors, live in?
I can provide you with the experience I have had. My best friend took the pill for the 1st 5 years of her marriage. She stopped taking the pill and had 2 miscarriages. She was seen by 3 different OB/GYN who stated that the lining of her uterus was weakened which is what caused her miscarriages. And that is enough for me.
And yes I care about them. And FYI I care about the environment, I just don't happen to buy into the whole "global warming" and "paper plates will kill you" mentality. If I don't want to stop using them NOBODY has the right to tell me I have to. If I don't want to purchase reusable bags at Walmart I shouldn't have to. And me using those things doesn't make me Anti environment it makes me Pro Freedom. Freedom to make my own choices without being bombarded every day with "Go Green".
Originally posted by mom9900: I highly disagree. How many children they have is soley up to them and there has been differing opinions in the medical community re: long term usage of the BC pill and the inability of a woman to carry a fetus to term.
Irresponsible of them to go into churches and talk about this??
No it is irresponsible of schools to go in behind parents backs and educate the kids on how to use a condom. Or any of the other garbage they want to tell kids in the name of "safe sex education".
What the Duggars are advocating is abstinence and they are telling what they have done in their family in regards to letting God choose the size of their family.
Thank God for them and their message of abstinence in this age of do what feels good and to HELL with the consequences.
There is alot that many will have to answer for in life, and the doctors who perform the abortions and the clinics that give out BC pills to teenagers are in that line as well.
Yes it is irresponsible for them to go into churches and blame birth control pills for that miscarriage. Some will take this to be gospel, stop using birth control and unwanted pregnancies will be the result, more children born to parents unable or unwilling to raise them. Preaching/speaking/testimony, call it what you will, the subject of not using birth control and blaming it for the miscarriage was discussed when they visited a church in San Francisco (I think it was) and the unfounded reasons for not using it. Most arrogant of us humans to decide what is God's will and what is not. Why would God punish us for using birth control? Makes no sense. It's simply responsibility shifting, something we're all pretty good at these days.
I know for a fact that miscarriages can be caused by long term use of the pill. See above post. It wasn't 1 opinion, it was 3 different OB/GYN's who all stated that long term use of the pill is known to weaken the uterus thereby resulting in early miscarriages.
Originally posted by Blueberry6: I have never used any birth control whatsoever. We have four children and have been married for 17 years. That is our choice as a married couple. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you. I don't know why someone who doesn't use birth control is so psychologically damaged and uneducated. It's a choice. My reproductive choice. If you stand for choice, then that includes all choice, not just what you choose and what you feel is right.
Jim Bob and Michelle speak in churches who have asked them to come and speak about their life, their choices and their experiences. No one is forced to listen to them. I'm guessing that they are speaking to people who hold the same views as the Duggars and want to hear them.
I think it is very harsh to paint with such a broad stroke regarding religions and individuals who don't use birth control.
We all have unique ideas, thoughts and opinions. Nothing wrong with that.
AMEN!!!!
Isn't it convenient that "choice" is only right when it suits people.
I think my first post didn't read clearly.
I appreciate that. I think sometimes people forget that birth control can be something that is medically necessary. My friend had problems with her ovaries and she had the most painful cramps and the only thing that lessened her pain and heavy periods was being on birth control. Other instances like women undergoing treatment for a chronic health condition may need to be on BC as well.
I have their book, I'll take a look and see if it mentions any of that.