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I personally don't think there is anything christian about "submitting to" or "obeying" someone. Seems demeaning to me. When I hear submitting to someone, sounds like slavery to me. When I hear obey, sounds like something you expect a dog to do.

If one is a born again Christian, they will understand the concepts.
They aren't negative concepts, but a Biblical ones. 1989ab explains the Biblical relationship of a husband and wife very well.
although we all strive for the Biblical relationship, we are also sinners and sometimes the selfish nature gets in the way.

Although the Word does say that a woman should be submissive, there is a whole chapter of ways the husband must treat his wife and children.
As for the equality issue, if we are still arguing what the Word says... a man and woman cleave together as one. The love and respect is to be as one. Marriage is suppose to be two working as one.
I know it doesn't always work that way, but it is ideal, same sex or opposite.

This wise lady sums it up very well:

http://inashoe.com/2007/08/pat...y-is-not-a-bad-word/

Why is this Biblical idea uphelp while many are not? Picking and choosing weakens the argument of "the Bible says".

Beyond that, there is little use to continue arguing over submission. There is n arguing with faith. If a person believes that they are ordered to do something by the Bible, and they choose to obey it as one of their selected commands, then you're not going to show them any sense otherwise. You guys argue Bible, I argue logic. Faith and reason are antithetical, always will be. So perhaps, as was suggested before, we agree to disagree?

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Originally posted by DeeKay1:

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I personally don't think there is anything christian about "submitting to" or "obeying" someone. Seems demeaning to me. When I hear submitting to someone, sounds like slavery to me. When I hear obey, sounds like something you expect a dog to do.

If one is a born again Christian, they will understand the concepts.
They aren't negative concepts, but a Biblical ones. 1989ab explains the Biblical relationship of a husband and wife very well.
although we all strive for the Biblical relationship, we are also sinners and sometimes the selfish nature gets in the way.

So those here that disagree with this notion are not born again Christians? Interesting.

The "born again" description is a Baptist term. You won't likely hear that in any other Christian denomination (for the most part). However, somewhere along the way, some Baptists (and some other Evangelical type Christians) got the distorted notion that homeschooling and spouting out a bunch of kids was somehow honoring God. When I was a girl growing up, this was not the norm and the only families who had a bunch of kids were the very poorest in the community. For the most part, the belief was that they were too stupid to know what caused the pregnancies or were too lazy or cheap to get the birth control. They were also thought to be pretty uneducated and used little common sense when it came to finances. My belief about very large families hasn't changed from the perceptions of when I was growing up. People have mush for brains who have many children because it costs way too much to raise a child and the fact that the parents can't possibly raise those kids themselves is unfair to ALL the kids. That hillbilly, back woods mentality is how I view the Duggars and the Bates families. They are irresponsible and ignorant to keep having kids - esp. in their 40's.

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Originally posted by lllovell:

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Originally posted by DeeKay1:

quote:

I personally don't think there is anything christian about "submitting to" or "obeying" someone. Seems demeaning to me. When I hear submitting to someone, sounds like slavery to me. When I hear obey, sounds like something you expect a dog to do.

If one is a born again Christian, they will understand the concepts.
They aren't negative concepts, but a Biblical ones. 1989ab explains the Biblical relationship of a husband and wife very well.
although we all strive for the Biblical relationship, we are also sinners and sometimes the selfish nature gets in the way.

So those here that disagree with this notion are not born again Christians? Interesting.

No, of course not. Everyone that I know who is Christian (as well as the Jews and Muslims I know) has their relationship set up to e equal, and would most definitely not agree with women submitting.
This is, in my opinion, a way of life that certain Christian groups have latched on to, and then they expect that other Christians will understand and join them.

I need a sarcasm button on my keyboard

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Originally posted by lllovell:
I need a sarcasm button on my keyboard

No, I'm sorry. I did get your sarcasm, I did. But it was too good a statement to not reply to, and you'd made an excellent point. I guess I couldn't help myself.

No problemo - - - -just didn't want anyone thinking I had fallen into the group that makes comments like that.

I have never seen a culture where women are valued less than men be one I want to live in or deal with. Every human being should be on equal footing. A marriage is a partnership. It isn't always each giving 1/2 to make 1 whole but it is each being there and supporting the other when they need it which makes it whole. I don't defer to my husband for discipline, financial matters, purchase decisions, or any other items that go on in our lives. I expect him to be smart enough to do what is right for us both and for me to do the same. If it is something big or major (in any area of our lives), we discuss it and work together to find a solution. If we disagree, there is no telling which way the decision will go.

The fact that there are some here who are willing to allow another to "lord" over them is interesting to me and it doesn't surprise me that they are the ones that are the most fanatical in my book. I believe God gave us brains and free will. When you are sheep, then you will always be lead by others and I cannot fathom that following blindly is the same as making the right decisions in live when it comes to the "tally" sheet at the end of life. It is much harder to do correctly when you are in charge of your existence than it is to live like the Duggars (and others who believe that "daddy" must always be obeyed) and live a sheltered life. If there are no temptations, you aren't showing faith by remaining untempted.

Laura

Good post Laura!

Michelle and Jim Bob are happily married. Whatever they do, it seems to work for them. Michelle certainly looks satisfied with her life and so does Jim Bob.

If a woman does not want to submit to her husband, it's her choice. Michelle does. It is her choice based on what she believes to be true and right.

Every couple has their own way of working their marriage. This is Jim Bob's and Michelle's system.

I am happy to say that my husband is the head of our marriage. I love him and he treats me well. We are equals. Equal does not mean identical. I feel we each have unique roles. We're happy. I know that bothers other people but I don't know why...no one has forced me to do anything. These are my beliefs. And over the past 17 years of marriage, they have changed somewhat too as we have grown and changed.

I would encourage my daughters to read what the Bible says about marriage. They have free will. They can set up their marriage any way that they want to. That is between the husband, the wife and God.

Anna chose this life and belief system. We see that some of her sisters did not. Her parents did not force her to marry Josh. She chose it. I don't believe she is shocked by how it's going...she knew the deal and chose it. Maybe Anna is happy? You might not be happy but you are not Anna or Michelle. If this lifestyle doesn't make you happy, then don't choose it. If it upsets you, then don't follow it.

Why is one choice acceptable and one choice is not?

The most important thing is to be happy, satisfied and peaceful in your relationship with your spouse.

Edit to add: All sorts of marriages fall apart. And all sorts of marriages have success. That is something that is so unique and intimate between two people...I don't know if another person can really understand how someone else's marriage really works, ya know?

Blueberry6 that was an excellent post and I agree with it 100%!!!

Have you read the testimonial of Anna and Josh? She didn't fall in love with Josh and get to know him and all of that. She was given to him by her father.

I have no problem with your decisions. I also have no problem with Michelle and Jim Bob's decisions. I have a problem with the fact that they lived a regular lifestyle and had a choice. They are not giving their children this choice. The children are being raised that this is the only way that is correct to live and stay in God's good graces and get into Heaven.

These girls are waiting for their father to tell them who to marry. That doesn't skeeve you out? Anna could not have imagined what life in the Duggar clan was like as she didn't grow up with cameras in her face and the whole "travel as a pack" mentality. It is also obvious that she was not responsible for taking care of her younger siblings. Her family leads a much different life to me than the Duggar clan.

As far as the marriage that Josh asked for and her father agreed to, I believe that she married "royality" in the fundie world. I also think that she would not have a choice. If she didn't want to marry Josh and her father told her she had to, then she has to in their world.

They have no skills, no money, no real world experiences, no where to turn, no place to live, no job. You can say all you want that they have choices and could leave, but they can't. Emotionally they have been blackmailed with their behavior against their eternal souls!!! Yes, we are all responsible for our behaviors and they do effect your relationship with God, but these children are taught to "keep sweet", mind their father, stay at home until you are allowed to marry and follow what you are told without question. There are NO choices for the girls and limited ones for the boys.

Jim Bob and MIchelle can do what they please, but now they are dragging 19 down that hole with them. The exception is that Jim Bob and Michelle CHOSE this life and the kids have never known anything different.

Do you actually believe that any of them will go to college? Do you believe that any of those girls will be allowed to become a midwife? Do you think that they could wear pants if they wanted to? Do you think that the girls can cut their hair or the boys let theirs grow?

If you do, I think you have been drinking the kool-aid that the Duggars are offering because not one of those kids is going to easily break away. I believe it will happen at some point, but it will be a lot like the FLDS women that have broken away. If you think the FDLS people are "ok" then you won't believe these women who leave anyway when they tell how things really were. It amazes me when woman after woman tell their stories (QF women too) and yet people still deny that what they experiences is common.

Go and read some from the "No Longer Quivering" website and others like it. While I can believe in the core values here, family, love, sharing, etc, I think that things have gotten twisted so extremely that it isn't worth any price.

LLL

I'm not even buying that Michelle has much of a choice. Do you really think she has a choice on having more kids? She isn't going to buck her husband on this even though she should and he should be smart enough to know the greater risks by continuing to keep her pregnant. I will find it very hard to have an ounce of sympathy should Michelle or her new baby have health issues because they have brought it on themselves. Ignorant attention-seeking fundies that they are.

Actually Misty, I agree with you there as well. Michelle doesn't have a choice in my mind BUT she decided that is how she wanted to live. She gave up any control she had to Jim Bob long ago.

Short of mental or physical abuse, no one can take that sort of power from you. You have to willingly give it. I do not think that Jim Bob has ever done either to Michelle. He does seem to adore her, but in a 16 year old sort of way. Crude jokes about sex, lots of PDA, never being apart.

Laura