This is a bit of a long one, I apologize... I am an airline pilot, flying in the pacific northwest. I have been flying since 1998, and I need to comment on the cell phone myth: I am now running into problems on my flights, where passengers are refusing to comply with flight attendant's instructions to turn off their cell phones, usually stating "but the MythBusters busted the cell phone myth - it's o.k. to use them, I don't care about the regs" or something to that effect.
First, let me assure you that cell phones DO interfere with cockpit communication and navigation equipment. I regularly get a buzzing noise in my headset any time a cell phone is on, especially from a CDMA network. In some instances, it was so bad I could not here tower communications. In addition, I am aware of instances where cell phones have set off smoke detectors in the cargo hold. Recently, the FAA came out with an advisory where they suggest cell phones might interfere with the TCAS (traffic Collision Avoidance System) which is critical to keeping airplanes from hitting each other.
The issue that was tackled in the show was whether or not a VOR receiver can function in the presence of a cell phone. In fact, the receiver acts just fine. The problem actually arises in the wiring that is strung in most cases over the passenger's heads. In some cases, as in my aircraft (the DHC 8 Q200) the avionics boxes are actually under the floor in the passenger cabin: you see, every electrical device creates an electrical field. Wires are supposed to be insulated from electromagnetic interference, but that is not always the case and varies widely from airplane to airplane. For reference, take the Airbus A380 superjumbo jet: in spite of being brand new, with the first flight only last year, the aircraft is currently undergoing serious redesign when it was discovered that the inflight entertainment system created such a strong field it interfered with the navigation systems through their respective wiring.
One other item worth mentioning: when a cell phone doesn't receive a signal, it boosts it's own output to try and raise a tower. That signal is quite a bit stronger than the one that was tested, since you had a cell phone signal and towers in range during the test. In the air, starting at around 5,000 ft the signal from towers are gone, so the cell phone will boost it's output signal to try and find them.
Since the effect of the equipment varies from aircraft to aircraft, and depends on the location and quality of wire shielding and of the location of the cell phone in a particular cabin, the FAA has banned the use of cell phones in flight. I respectfully request that you honor that rule. Trust me when I say this - safety rules were written in blood, i.e. the rule wasn't written until someone got hurt.
I would really appreciate it if you could revisit this myth. I will be happy to lend what assistance I can, and PLEASE - Don't argue with the flight attendants. Those of us who are aviation professionals know the risks, our jobs are difficult enough as it is. Please don't make it any harder.
Qxaviator that was about one of the best posts on this subject I have seen. I don't fly the heavy jets you do, but I have all the equiptment you have described and know that cell phone DO interfere with a number of avionics.
Thank you very much. That was a well-thought out and intelligent explanation, and I hope people take it to heart. Hospitals have the same problem. Every hospital has signs at every entrance to tourn off cell phones on entering the hospital. I wass in the emergency room recently with a breathing problem, and I saw three people in the waiting room with a cell phone screwed in their ear. I told them that the hospital did not put the signs up for shyts and giggles, and htat cell phones can interfere with certain medical equipment. Equipment that is keeping someone alive. I do not wish to die in a hospital because some waste of skin won't get off the cell phone.
First of all, thanks to all of you who responded ! I really appreciate the feedback.
In response to SparkyPaul, here are the excerpts from the FAA regulations, as well as an explanation from the FCC about the cell phones. You are correct that the FCC has issues with the cell phones tying up multiple towers on the ground. In addition, the FAA also has rules in place regarding all electronic devices on board an aircraft. It should be noted that all electronic devices have the potential to cause issues, not just cell phones - although cell phones transmit a signal, hence they are far more likely to cause problems.
American Airlines had started the process to evaluate the use of cell phones in flight. That process is now on hold, and will not be started up again anytime soon, to the best of my knowledge.
For reference, look up Part 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 (General Aviation Regulations) and Part 125 (Air Carrier certification) on www.FAA.gov
Oh, and one more thing. Yes, autopilots are used and are an important tool in flying. That said, I can tell you that the vast majority of pilots do NOT spend the entire flight "swapping files" or ignoring the happenings on the flight deck. Things can and do get very interesting very fast.
Cheers!
§ 125.204 Portable electronic devices.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the Part 125 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) The determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that Part 125 certificate holder operating the particular device to be used.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) rules prohibit the use of cellular phones using the 800 MHz frequency and other wireless devices on airborne aircraft. This ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground.
In March 2007, the FCC terminated a proceeding that it began in late 2004 to consider potentially lifting this ban. The FCC determined that the technical information provided by interested parties in response to the proposal was insufficient to determine whether in-flight use of wireless devices on aircraft could cause harmful interference to wireless networks on the ground. Therefore, it decided at this time to make no changes in the rules prohibiting in-flight use of such devices.
In addition to the FCC’s rules, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) prohibits in-flight use of wireless devices because of potential interference to the aircraft’s navigation and communication systems. For this same reason the FAA also regulates the use of all portable electronic devices (PEDs), such as iPods and portable DVD players, during flight.
The FCC has approved rules that allow in-flight voice and data services, including broadband services using dedicated air-to-ground frequencies that were previously used for seat-back telephone service. Air-to-ground service providers are in the process of rolling out new in-flight services, such as high-speed Internet access for laptop computers. Because these services will operate in frequencies that are dedicated to air-to-ground communications and are separate from those used for wireless services on the ground, they do not pose an interference risk to wireless networks on the ground. Providers of in-flight wireless broadband and other communications services using the air-to-ground frequencies must coordinate with airlines and comply with any FAA rules in order to offer such services.
For further information on use of personal wireless devices on airplanes, contact the FCC’s Consumer Center by calling 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322) voice, 1-888-TELL-FCC (1-888-835-5322) TTY; faxing 1-866-418-0232; sending an e-mail to fccinfo@fcc.gov; or writing to:
Federal Communications Commission Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau Consumer Inquiry and Complaints Division 455 12th Street, SW Washington, DC 20554.
I'm sure the cell phones might cause minor interference in some aircraft, but thats not what I've experienced in Naval Aircraft. I am a Naval Aviator, and have been flying since 1988 (Helicopters/Training Planes/Twin Engine Transport Planes). I have, on Multiple Occasions, used my own Cell Phone to call my girlfriend while I was flying. In Helicopters...it's too loud to hear the cellphone, (unless you remove your helmet, put in an ear phone...and put your helmet back on). In the fixed wing trainers that I flew (I was a flight instructor), I also had to do the "Helmet Thing." But I also flew a Naval version of a "Civilain Commuter Plane," the C-26. It was quiet enough to use the phone normally. In all cases, I never noticed any type of malfunction with respect to NAV EQUIPMENT or COMM Equipment. One time, my Co-Pilot and I, actually experimented (we were on a long training flight...in VFR conditions) with a CELL with purpose of attempting to cause interferrence. We placed the phone in various locations of the cockpit, but got nothing abnormal. We had the crewchief make calls from various locations in the cabin....Nothing. I even used my phone.. while the co-pilot shot multiple instrument approaches (VOR, TACAN, ILS, ADF and VOR/DME. We conducted this "experiment in flight over a two hour period. The result....Nothing. Not even a buzz in the head sets.
There is something to consider about this, especially with army aircrafts, the avionics and almost every equipment in these aircrafts are designed to work under very heavy conditions of RFI (Radio Frecuency Interference)and other abnornal conditions in which civilian aircrafts are never, the cellphones DO interfere with civilian equipment.
I appreciate your opinions, but I do have a beef about one thing:
The person on American Airlines is a Flight Attendant, not a Waitress. I take personal offense to that, having worked the job myself for a little over a year before I moved to the flight deck. For you and anyone else who doesn't understand what I am talking about: Flight attendant training is quite difficult, stressful and lasts for 6 weeks, not including line flight training which lasts another 3. Out of all that time, the training to serve drinks takes only 1/2 an hour. OUT OF 6 WEEKS! All the other time is spent learning how to: Fight fires; first aid; evacuate an aircraft; prepare passengers in an emergency; self defense. Need I go on? Your lack of respect is pathetic, and dangerous. I don't care whether you agree with the rules or not - they are still there, and will be enforced by professionals who have made aviation safety their life's work and as such know more about it than you. I don't think you realize how often, at a given time, there is an airborne event of some type that requires a response from the professionals in the back. I personally have already had one diversion this year, due to a hydraulic system abnormality. A Northwest airplane had to return to the airport in Seattle two days ago because some idiot declared a bomb threat - all because he missed his own flight. Don't get me started. I don't know what you do, but I would never diss you like that.
I appreciate that not everyone knows everything about every subject. Even if you disagree with a given rule or aspect of an industry - and maybe you do know more than us - please have the respect to help us do our job. You might learn something.
The C-26 is a Civilian Aircraft purchased by the Navy and USAF. We used it as VIP transport plane. Its COMNAV equipment wasn't shielded. I tested this theory inflight at least a year before the Mythbusters episode aired, because we (the pilots were using our cells frequently). Three different types of Cells were used. I did make a mistake in my earlier e-mail. The C-26 did not have a TACAN. But it did have civilian VHF Radio, VOR DME, ILS and ADF, as well as a "Flight Director" NAV SYS. During instrument approaches, all of this equipment functioned perfectly...no anomalies.
The basic issue is why take the chance. I believe the MB's made that point in the episode. Yes your particular phone might be fine but is it worth it to put a couple hundred people in danger just so you can keep in touch. With phones and avionics and other electronic equipment changing almost every day it is just a more practical option to issue a blanket ban. Personally if an airline pilot tells me that cell phones have caused him trouble then I will believe him instead of being an a-hole and using the MB's to justify my behavior.
SgtGoody, Thank you. That is precisely my point. Shooting an approach down to minimums in 500 ft visibility, the less that can go wrong the better. Engineering is never perfect, and I don't want to be on the one airplane where something is affected.
The situation becomes pretty confusing when you consider that there are several frequency bands for cell phones combined with several modulation and encoding techniques. Add in that some phones leak their intermediate frequencies worse than others do and you have a heck of a lot of variables just with the phones.
Then figure in the various types of aircraft and that even in the same type of airplane you might have different navigational-avionics and communication equipment, all of which could have different vulnerabilities.
You can see how complicated this gets. There are literally hundreds of combinations.
Then, just to make things worse, the wiring in every plane is slightly different, susceptable to breakage, repairs, etc. and if there were shields, they may have been broken or disconnected. So what doesn't affect one plane may well affect an exactly identical plane.
Therefore, the rules about cell phones on planes has to be a blanket approach.
Bear in mind that the flight attendants and pilots have the authority to tell a person not to do something. It is a FEDERAL OFFENSE to disobey the directions of the flight crew.
A person may be using an 'approved device', but if it causes a problem, the attendant(s) or pilots make people turn off their devices. If they do so, that is NOT the time to argue. By FEDERAL LAW you must turn your devices off. I have seen this happen with a laptop.
Further, you may have an approved device, but the flight crew make direct you to turn it off simply because they don't think it is approved. I have seen this happen with a smart phone which had a standby mode and with a PDA with a built in GPS/WiFi/Bluetooth. The device may indeed be approved and you can POLITELY try to explain that to the flight crew, but if they are not swayed, then you have turn the device off. Again, failure to do so is a violation of federal law. The correct time and place to protest is AFTER the flight.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: master_sergeant,
Master_Sergeant, you are right on the ball! Kudos. Now, if only the MythBusters would revisit this and say that on the air, maybe I won't have half the problems I do now...
Maybe they should retest this myth in New Zealand, or (I think) in a NZ registered aircraft (ZK-XXX) anywhere in the world. In New Zealand, cellphone use is only banned on IFR (Flying using instruments) and not during VFR (Flying by visual means). Almost all airlines in New Zealand however choose to ban cellphone use at all times to save on the confusion for passengers. Because of this however a big plane could be taken up on a nice day under VFR flight rules and cellphones could be tested.
As I said in my initial e-mail. I do believe that it's possible for a cell to cause some degradation. I also never advocated mass use of cell phones on commercial flights...mainly because I believe it would be very annoying. But my experience with cells, and talking to other pilots- support my initial argument....cells probably do not affect avionics in most cases. When I did use the cell, I was flying VFR. We shot the approaches for training...but were not RELYING on that equipment for "safety of flight" reasons because we knew where we were. We could see the airfield and were in Radar Contact with approach control. Furthermore...most commercial aircraft have multiple radios capable of broadcasting on different freqs. (VHF/UHF/HF, etc) A cell could probably not affect all of the various systems. When I was stationed in Sicily, my "ground job" was to run the Navy/AMC Air Terminal. In the command post, I (or my subordinates) regularly received cell-phone calls from Contract AMC flights. These crews were flying civilian aircraft contracted by the USAF's air mobility command.... and flew 747's, L1011's, C-130, 757, 767, DC-8 etc. I was friends with many of the Pilots. Sometimes they'd call me prior to arrival so I could have "Pizza's or Special Italian food waiting for them. Or we'd set up arrangements to dine out at one of the local restaurants. More often then not...they were conducting mission related phonecalls directly to the command post because they were beyond the range of our VHF/UHF radios, and did'nt want to relay messages through Italian ATC (for obvious reasons) These calls were almost a daily occurrence. In conversation with these pilots...the consenses was that cells were not a problem for aircrew use. However none of us would advocate them for passenger use.
Pilot is bothered by cell phone use during landing/take-off. Pilot asks you to stop using cell phone. User stops using cell phone so that pilot can take off and remaining passengers that want to get off the ground don't lynch user for being inconsiderate and making them wait or putting their safety at risk during a takeoff. If user doesn't stop using cell phone, pilot insists. If user still doesn't stop, pilot can have user removed from the aircraft, and probably will.
It's in everyone's best interests if you wait until the plane is in the air before using your cell phone. It's courteous, at the very least. It's not a huge imposition, and based on the FAA and FCC, it's the law. Just shut the damned thing off and wait a short while. Why is this so hard? Your civil liberties and rights as a citizen are not being denied, and even if they were, then they're outweighed by the fact you're denying everyone else on the plane of THEIR rights by not shutting off your phone.
I don't even know why anyone would argue against this rule, unless you people that refuse to hang up just want some small vindication for being rude, self-important jerks. Bottom line: it's not your decision. It's the pilot's.
Bottom line, you still have to turn off your cell phone. if you really need to make a call, there are phone on the plane you can use. They are usually expensive, but they are there.
If it's an emergency, the cost of the call would be worth it. And it's defiantly cheaper than bail and court costs. not to mention getting the passengers around you p1ssed off.
Cell phones transmit even when not in a call. And as pointed out, when they lose reception, they increase their power to try to contact a tower.
If you have 200 people on a plane, how are you going to know whose phone is causing the problem?
What if the problem isn't noticable until it is too late?
Turn them off, period. It is good policy and when you are cruising at 25,000-35,000 feet, if you do get a signal, you could cause interference for the cell systems on the ground.
I guess I didn't make myself clear...(For the third time now) The initial argument was not whether or not cells SHOULD be used. Of course its against the law to use them on U.S. flights. The initial question was DO they interfere with avionics. That is ALL that I am interested in, with respect to this topic. I don't use them on Commercial flights...and do not recommend the general use of either. Maybe CELLS degrade avionics in some cases, maybe they don't. Just because someone says they DO/DO NOT, because "Theoretically they should," does not settle the argument. Mythbusters is about conducting controled experiments. I keep hearing people say that they do. Have "they" ever tried it? I have. On many occasions. I even mentioned that we tried 3 different cells, from various locations, over a two hour period. I also stated that many other Pilots I know, claim that they didn't notice COM/NAV degradation when using CELLS in flight. If an Airline Pilot claims that they do, from his "Past Experience," I'm simply interested in what he is basing this on. Was there a report from a crew member that someone was using a cell at some period during the flight? Radios crackle/buzz periodically, VOR needles flicker, ILS needles can vibrate ...and do frequently, without CELL phone interference. I will however believe a Pilot, if he in fact used the phone....and observed it's affect. If a flight attendent reports cell usage during pretaxi checklist, taxi, etc., ...and he just so happened to see an "Off flag" at some unspecified point in time, you could not positively link the two.
I've just mentioned it in another thread, that there's a myth that most cell phone myths are actually to stop companies losing money. It maybe that some safety fear was considered later but the first thing considered was making money.
Now recently I travelled on a flight and was told that I wouldn't even be allowed to listen to music on my phone when switched to flight mode. iPods, other MP3 players and portable DVD players were also banned. Surely an iPod can't interfere with a plane and this is just an excuse to ban all entertainment except for in-flight entertainment which some airlines charge for headphone sell or hire?
As for cell phones in hospitals, cell phones only effect equipment if within a couple of feet of the equipment, thus some hospitals have restricted area's like the emergency room. Although some hospitals that have outside contacts for patient bedside phone systems have written into them clauses banning cell phones so they don't compete with the systems!
