To say that hydrogen did not have anything to do with the Hindenburg explosion is a bit silly. However it is admitted that thermite reactions did take place on the model. I think it would be nice to see how much the thermite reactions help the burn by burning models without a thermite capable hull. Perhaps use aluminum alone or iron oxide alone for a hull.
Adam and Jamie were waaay off here. The myth wasn't that the skin of the Hindenberg was the only component in its burning. No one is saying that the hydrogen didn't play any part. The myth is that the fire STARTED in the skin. That is to say, if it hadn't been for the skin, the fire wouldn't have begun in the first place. It was the nature of this skin to ignite because of electric weather conditions, which then spread catastrophically over the whole ship via flaming hydrogen.
I think they should redo the Hindenberg myth and start buring from below. This should lessen the burn times, because it will allow the canvas above to be preheated from the fire below. You may find the times more in line with the actual burn time of the Hindenberg.
Great episode, guys!! I think there is one more scenario that could be investigated: Remove the "separate layers of aluminum/iron" factor, and nothing else. Mix the iron dope for the iron layer, mix the aluminum dope for the aluminum layers. Now, pour all the dope into one bucket, and paint your multiple layers from THAT mixture. Logic says it would burn faster than the original separate layer model, but slower than the pure thermite model. Wonder where the burn time would fall?
True, they were only trying to test the how the dope coating affected the burn time (which if you look at the non-hydrogen filled model than it didn't contribute much).
But I wonder if it had been just hydrogen with non-dope coated material if it would have burned just as slowly as the non-hydrogen zepp and if it wasn't just a combination of the two that made it so explosive.
And yes, there were many many many other elements that made the Hindenburg burn much faster than the mythbuster models, like electrical equipment, the fuel, the "bags", the weather, and what made the derigible burn in the first place. But mostly this was just a test of the skin vs. the hydrogen. Though all of these could account for the lack of speed in the model.
I think this was a great episode. I just wonder about the angle of the Hindenberg as it burned. I would guess that as the skin initially caught fire, hydrogen gas would have begun escaping from the hole causing the rear of the vessel to drop downward allowing the fire to then burn upward. Kind of like if you light a match, then turn it upside down, it burns up the stick much faster. The Hinderberg on the show was suspended level for the entire burn, but in the video of the real Hindenberg it appeared to drop unevenly. Great job in any case. Love the show.
Originally posted by mythmod: What caused the Hindenberg to burn so quickly?
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MythMod
The story I have read about was static ignition of the cloth or the hydrogen, The myth also was bringing to light that the cloth dope mixture was flammable, Originally it was designed to reflect solar energy, rain and resist lightning. What I have read is the outer panels had spaces between the cloth and the aluminum structure. A static charge built up on the surface of the panel and discharged into the frame. The question or myth was could the cloth build up a static charge and then did the panel light on fire with the static release, did the thermite like dope light first or did the Hydorgen.
The Germans though we had bombed it and we thought spys had bombed it to make us look bad. Then static was though to light the hydrogen, then the doped skin was thought to light by a static electricity spark.
You proved the skin would burn in a thermite like fire when you burned a single panel, you added a small flame, started as a slow burn then it went crazy like a thermite fire. When you burned the dope balloon with hydrogen it looked like the new real. But the real myth of did static start the thermite like fire, was not explored. PS the blimp was filled with hydrogen so testing it without H2 was just for fun.
The second blimp model looked a lot like the original news film. You did forget that the first part of the Hindenburg burn was not caught on film so we do not know how long it took for the camera man to see the fire start,get his wits about him to film and get his camera working. We only see film from when he started rolling. Up to a minute could have passed from the first spark.
I do wish you would do a little more historical research on your shows, I have seen a few horrible half understandings of historical myths, which then leads to half science approaches, which is not leading to good learning.
I do not understand alot of these posts. They were exploring the actual Hindenburg. Using inaccurate 'controls' would prove nothing. The Hindenburg was a Zeppelin not a blimp. A blimp is filled like a big balloon. A zeppelin is a frame surrounding separate bags of a lighter than air gas. Hydrogen in the case of the Hindenburg. If the 'bag' was filled with hydrogen, it would have exploded NOT burned as the box test showed. The controls were located on the underside of the Hindenburg. The news reel clearly shows it burning from the top down. It burned slowly at first until the heat ruptured the interior hydrogen bags then really went up in flames. Of course I do wonder if there was a pressure release for the gas around where the fire started. I also think it was a small lightning strike that started the fire as opposed to a static charge. The journey from Germany to the US was a long one especially for a zeppelin. I would think the static would have built up long before reaching the States.
Essentially, the theory is that static charge caused the skin to ignite first rather than the assumption that a charge caused the hydrogen itself to ignite first (and the skin to ignite later). If the skin ignited first, it's more to blame for the disaster than hydrogen.
I'm not really sure how this was warped into nothing but a speed of burning question- but I must admit that I missed portions of the episode because of little kids waking up.
Questions about the testing method as completed:
- Did the Hindenburg have extra blasts of hydrogen once the ignition started? I was quite surprised when I heard them saying to turn up the hydrogen once we saw and heard the pop after the hydrogen already in the model was burned. I don't know enough about the design of the real ship, but it seems like blasting more hydrogen into the model wasn't realistic. Of course if additional H2 was being pumped into the Hindenburg as it burned, I'd want to know the rate and redo the test with a controlled H2 rate.
- Did the non-H2 model have air in it? I'd really like to see a helium filled model for better accuracy.
What else I'd change: - They ignited the skin. I thought the real question was did the skin ignite first or did the hydrogen ignite first. I'd want to build up a static charge and see what ignited first.
wait, the mythbusters have to revisit this myth cause i heard that there was a static charge in the air on that day. since the hydrogen was contained on the inside that means the skin was what got ignited. also, the hindenburg burned faster because the back of it was burning first causing the front to float upward which made the whole thing burn faster and in the show they didnt simulate the hindenburg tilting upward.
You must not forget that the Hindenberg would of started to Head in a Downward angle if they knew it was catching fire in an Attempt to land it. Also The fire more than likely started on the underside of the ship, not on the upper top, and also you tested it in a Still winded enviroment. If the hindenburg was moving at a great enough speed, after catching fire if it had a large enough hole(s) it could of actually caused the Hydrogen to be released into the air prematurely, leaving less hydrogen to burn. Also you did not take into account the actual box that the people flew in, Also Take in account to the ammount of smoke seen in the footage, Thats a huge factor, It could actually help determine the actual mixture's used. Also the engine's were powered by 4 1,200 Horsepower DIESEL engines, The fuel being carried on board for such long trips could of been a factor as well. The maximum speed was 84mph or 73 knots. The Disposable lift was rated at about 110 tons for the Hindenburg. Also the Passenger rooms were contained within the hull of the zeplin, there was also a pressurized smoking room to prevent the admisson of any leaking Hydrogen, and Im assuming that they may have pumped oxygen from some source into that room, which could of helped fuel the fire, also Strong winds were detected on several flights while the hindenburg was in service. Also an eye witness reported seeing "static electricity" moving up the hull from the BOTTOM, that same witness also claimed the fire started on one of the fins on the port side. A few other witnesses had seen the fabric in the location also flapping, like gas was leaking, before flight. The nasa report also states the flame moving at a full 49ft/s. Theyre were even a few survivors thanks to a water tank that had burst. A flash was also seen near the fins where the fire was located. The day was also reported with high Humidity. Also atmosphere pressure could of played a role. The fabric was impregnated with another material, not quite sure of what though. They report that the Lacquer used may have had graphite. Alot of Also's but I hope it helps make your next show. Good luck -Alex
I dont think that what you guys did was wrong at all but... I do however feel that instead of using the hyrogen inthat water trough that if the Mini Hindenburgs' were filled with hydrogen as it was in the acuall one then your burn times would have been more consisten with the acuall burning of the blimp.
And to stray somewhat off the topic what started the fire i heard that it was aplot from the gov. to shut this marvel down so they acually shot it down. i have heard so many different thing im not sure what to beleive.
They forgot the control hindenburg, regular skin (just the dope) with hydrogen to compair with the actual skin (dope & alunimum) of the actual hindenburg
Ok, i understand the whole idea behind the burning of the Hindenburg...... but my question is, what initially started the fire in the first place and depending on where and how it started wouldn't that change how it burned, did it start close to where the hydrogen was being sent into it or further away...wouldn't that change how it would have burned??
Yeah - it occurs to me that in order to find out exactly WHAT role the paint played in the burntime, you need the control of a hindenburg that is just hydrogen-filled. No fancy paint wahtsoever, right? Since the myth is about paint, and you have one with JUST paint, you need one with JUST hydrogen as well.
I think the fire would be closer to the real hindenburg if the air was removed from inside the blimp and only hydrogen was inside this way only the escaping gas will burn and you should not get an all out explosion
I have to say....busted it may not be (in my book anyway). If the actual dirgible burned in around 30 seconds and was 1:50 bigger than the accurate model the MB guys made, why did the accurate model (at 1:50 smaller) take nearly a full minute to burn? It would seem to me that the "megadope" dirgible burned in a more timely fashion. Perhaps the paints truly used were closer to the "megadope" mixture than what the Germans reported--or even knew. People make mistakes in factories ALL the time, so maybe the mixture was actually closer to the thermide zepplin than we will ever know for certain. The Hindenberg III did seem to burn at closer to the speed of the original ill-fated namesake, and with VERY similar intensity. I would've thought you guys (the MB team) would have at least said plausible instead of busted on this one...?? Great show by the way!!
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