A few notes from a former trumpet, trombone and tuba player, some of which have been brought up by others, but I'd like to expand on:

- A trombonist doesn't just create a seal, but there's positive pressure. I think the pressure behind a player's embouchure is something close to two atmospheres. The tuba is anout 1.25, the trumpet as high as 5-7. Depending on pitch and volume, of course.

- Most pro musicians, or even committed amateurs, have more than one instrument. Even in high school, I knew a lot of brass players who had an instrument worth thousands, which they used for indoor concert band and orchestra, and an old beater (usually the instrument their parents got them in the fourth or fifth grade) that they wouldn't worry so much about dropping or exposing to the elements in marching band practice.

- Good points above about the condition and lubrication of the slide, and about static vs. kinetic momentum -- I'll just chime in that it is possible for a trombone slide to fly off the end of the horn if a young, overenthusiastic player loses his grip while going from 1st to 7th position. Of course, it just goes clunk on the floor and is more embarrassing than dangerous, but under that circumstance, I don't think it would take all that much pressure to achieve a launch.

- But a trombonist inserting a mute before the climax of the 1812 overture would likely alert the conductor that something was up. Unless the trombonist was awful and the conductor asked him to use a mute to avoid distracting the others.

I agree about their not wanting to revisit the myth. It seems like the result of this revisit, especially their conclusion, was a self-fulfilling prophecy. They had already decided the outcome before beginning, and the final result that they got was just thrown away as a fluke and an unrealistic situation, when in fact it was the most accurate result. Definitely not perfect, but much closer than the other setups they tried.

I have to add my "voice" to this subject. As of the many who have written before, I take issue to "busting" of the trombone myth. At the very start, it was stated by Mr. Hyneman that this myth revolved around a human who's lips where firmly pressed against the instrument. Yet test after test, neither hosts ever made the effort to have the dummy in such a position. The head was for all intent just decoration! The only time the slide did become a projectile occurred during the final test by the sealing of the mouthpiece by overly dramatized theatrics. Next time, Myth-Busters; Practice what you preach and Follow thru from your FIRST statement to the last. The trombone myth by your tests, would still be Plausible rather then simply being Busted. Till the next Redux...

Only problem that I have at all with this myth is the fact that with most uses of the mute one has ones hand on the mute. With the pressure of the hand holding the mute in place and the pressure of ones embroucher, I would think that even a small amount of force would cause the slide to come off and travel a short distance... perhaps not the 70 ft the slide traveled in the show, but if the mute had been, say, taped in place, I would be willing to bet that the slide would have traveled much further

My my my... where to begin...
I'll start by saying that I am a trombone player. For the record, I have been playing for 20 years, and was a trombone performance major in college.
As reignoferror suggested, most musicians have a variety of instruments. Each horn has a unique tone quality, so many players select a horn based on the piece being performed. Additionally, most also have at least one beater for use in situations where damage might be more likely than a normal concert.

Static vs Kinetic momentum:
I think the fact that the slide was stationary during the test is probably irrelevant to the results. On a properly maintained slide, the coefficient of friction is so low that the energy required to move the stationary slide would be minimal. Even on my beater horns, the slide will still start moving if I look at the thing wrong.
Regardless, we can not safely assume that the slide was in motion at the time of the explosion. chppxbx used the base assumption that the player would be playing, however, I'd posture that a mute filled with explosives would not resonate, and therefore not make a sound. In light of that, the player would probably not be playing. However, whether or not he opts to fake it by moving the slide can not possibly be known.

Slide Lock:
People towards the beginning of this thread seem to think that merely having the slide in the most retracted position automatically engages the slide lock. This is not the case. On most horns, the lock is a ring that goes around the leadpipe and must be twisted before it actually locks. 1st position is a very important one, so players must be able to move in and out of it easily without the slide locking every time (as a side note, on many student horns, the lock latch gets bent to the point where it no longer "locks" the slide, regardless of the lock ring's position. Many older horns don't have a lock at all).

Mutes:
No conductor would ever instruct a player to use a mute simply to avoid distracting other players. A mute doesn't "mute" a horn in the same sense as muting your TV. There are a variety of different types of mutes (straight (as used in the myth), cup, bucket, wah-wah, etc), and each one changes the character of the sound. The reduction in volume is actually fairly minimal, and a player switching to a mute when one isn't called for would definitely grab the attention of the rest of the section, and probably the conductor.
Also, contrary to wizard832's statement, trombone players do not keep one hand on the mute, unless the mute is only required for one or two measures and must be removed very quickly (or the part calls for plunger effects). The hand that would hold the mute is needed to hold the actual horn, and playing with one hand on the mute is much more difficult. The mutes have strips of cork on the pointy end that hold the mute in the bell so that they player does not have to.
Also, for what it is worth, I can categorically state that the finale of the 1812 does not call for mutes in the brass parts.

Playing posture:
The natural playing position of the trombone has the bell and slide angled downwards. Generally, the slide would be pointing at the floor 5-10 feet in front of where the player is seated. Some parts are written as "bell up", where the player raises the angle of the bell for a more cutting sound, but this position often makes seeing both the conductor and the music stand more difficult, and is also rarely called for in classical music. Also, depending on how tightly the group is packed in (often an issue on smaller stages found in outdoor theaters), merely getting into a bell-up position is a challenge, due to the slide extending beyond the music stand. Regardless, having one player out of a section of 3-6 suddenly go bell-up, with a mute (in a section that doesn't call for mutes) is definitely going to attract some attention.

Psychology & Lip Pressure.
Think about it. If someone sets an explosive charge a mere 18 inches from their own head, are they really going to keep playing? Even if a mute full of explosives could resonate and make sound at all, do you really think the musician in question is going to keep a tight seal on the mouthpiece- drawing his face towards the impending explosion? Not likely. Chances are he is going to hold the horn gingerly, perhaps fake playing, but be ready to turn his head in order to shield himself from the explosion, as well as avoid the force of the backpressure wave coming up the leadpipe. It's more likely that by the time the charge went off, the player would be cowering behind the horn, trying desperately not to get hurt by the blast.

Anecdotal thoughts:
The first time I heard this myth, I immediately thought "total BS". Having seen 2 (rather weak) investigations, and drawing on my own experience, I still think the same. It is a humorous idea, but it simply isn't plausible.
As a trombone player, if I wanted to add "a little something extra" to the piece, I'd probably set up a charge somewhere else (like next to the conductor's podium, or beneath the tympani) that could be set off without putting myself in unnecessary danger...

I am having to write again because the revisit is on again and is stirring up all kinds of bad memories.

The first thing I want to talk about is explosives. I definitely agree that it is completely ridiculous to put black powder in your bell as the mythbusters did. The trombonist (although not smart) probably was smart enough not to highly explosive gun powder in his bell but rather a rocket of some sort. As a rocket creates a much smaller bang because instead of blowing up it just propels itself. This would also be much more pleasing to set of near the head or in close proximity of a person.

I also agree that the trombonist was not playing. One thing for sure is the fact that it would be extremely hard to light the firecracker while playing. The other thing is, you would want to watch your creation fly for off into the distance.

tweak4, what college did you attend, just wondering. I go to Oklahoma State University and play the french horn not the trombone. I am, however, friends with an extremely good trombone section. lets just say the second chair player won the international trombone competition in England. This section has no problem playing "bells up" as their stands are usually placed at an angle away from their slides.

I went to Miami University. The school didn't have a huge reputation for performance (though the music education program is fantastic), but the trombone professor was incredible. (And actually, for what its worth, I was a double major in performance and computer science- never intended to make music a career, just an out-of-control hobby)

I have a friend who is double majoring in music ed. and molecular biology so I understand about the out of control hobby.

so tweak, are u telling me that if an explosion goes off suddenly in the area of the face, u will have enough time to turn away?
i play the trombone and also, fake playing with ur head turned away is hard, unless the music is in front of ur eyes when u turn

two different pressure types pushing on a well lubed slide will certainly send it flying so it certainly is probable

and for the people that believe that an explosive force would push the mouthpiece off
it probably could, but if it is played for a long time, like if the orchestra played for about 10 mins of complicated music, there is a highly probable chance of the mouthpiece getting "glued" to the mouthpiece entry

that happened to me once and my band director had to use to tool designed for that purpose to get the mouthpiece off

First off, I am a Bass Trombone player in the Army Band less than 5 miles from the Alameda county range where the revisit took place and have been playing brass instruments for over 30 years. Like others have mentioned, I don't believe for a moment that the myth is true (even tenor trombone players aren't that foolish), but I am dissappointed in the lack of proper set-up to give the myth a 'fighting chance'. Here are the 'major' flaws as I see them:

1) Let's start with a functional horn. If the producers want to take this on again, send the horns to Best Instrument repair in Oakland and make sure they have an absolutely true slide. Then lube the shoulder with proper slide creme rather than gum up the horn with oil all over the slide. Most of us with properly maintained professional instruments actually play on a 'dry' slide because all lube does is gum things up.

2) Seeing the myth says the guy was playing, let's 'play' the horn. Again, drop by the band hall (or Davies Symphony hall, if you can get the S.F. Symphony to play along) with an airflow meter and take an average of the CFM and PSI that real trombonists produce at the mouthpiece, then simulate that pressure head against the blast. If we really want to get retentive, figure up a way to get some resonance going on as somebody might say the airflow isn't enough.

3) Start with a measure of the blast pressure against the playing pressure and see (another simulation?) what would happen with the M-80 used in the actual myth. Sometimes more isn't better.

In all seriousness, if the show really wants to 'put this one to bed' forever, they know where to find every trombone player that has participated on this thread, and although I can only truly speak for myself, I suspect that there would be no shortage of voluntary subject matter experts.

BTW, for ilovebeards... most of us have at least one 'sacrificial' horn, especially if you do a lot of parades (it's AMAZING how many people will walk in front of a band and then stop), and the least expensive trombone the Army owns (that we've bought in the last 5 years) list for over $5K (we paid about $3500 because we work hard to get good value for your tax dollars). That said, don't forget Roger Emerson's B3 or many, many '60's rockers who smashed at least one strat per concert.

Regards,

wclark4000

Good points by the trombone players. Never played trombone myself. I played trumpet in school. What everyone is missing is simple physics. Look at the shape of the horn end of the trobone and also the length of the small diameter tubing leading back to the player's lips. Simple physics tells us that any explosion will direct most of the force in the direction of the least resistance which in this case means out away from the horn. Very little of the blast will get directed down the tube and it will loose a lot of force at each bend in the tubing. What finally reaches the area of the slide is a tiny fraction of the original pressure even if like in the show they weld the mouthpiece shut. It's correct that a mute can be fit tightly in the horn but the shape of a mute is very similar to the horn shaped end and will likewise direct most of the blast out away from the trombonist.

Now if they placed a ballistic jell backstop in front of the mute similar to a shaped charge you might get a different result. Could the mythic trombone player have had a fellow bandmember in front of him to direct more of the explosion back into the trombone? I don't know but I'm not volunteering for the job.

Sealing the mouthpiece of the trombone is a poor representation. You're not just pressing your lips to the mouthpiece, you're blowing air. Pressure on both sides may allow for the slide to shoot off.

well like a lot of people said this myth is busted. I play trombone as well and its just not possible even when you blow through it the slide dosent move on its own. but one thing is true slides are dangerous i have "accidentally" hit some one in the head while marching and it hurts i have also been victim to the slide of a trombone.

csmaple -
I'm telling you that if I knowingly set an explosive charge 2 feet from my head, I'm not going to stare right at it as it goes off... call me crazy, but perhaps I just enjoy having a face too much.

And if you are fake playing to begin with, why would you even need music?

And I believe the people above for postulating that the force would push the mouthpiece off of the player's face, not off of the horn. Every brass player has had to use a mouthpiece puller at one point or another, but if the mouthpiece is getting "glued" to your lips after 10 minutes of playing, you've got bigger problems.

(sorry for the re-post - accidentally deleted the original while not fully paying attention to what I was doing)

I agree with the other posts here, and I'm surprised that the trombone revisit overlooked the fact that not only does the ombiture provide a very good seal, but the person would be blowing into the instrument as well. This should have been part of the revisit for certain, and could have easily been done with a small air compressor.

Also, remember that the player would have been holding the slide...you never let go of a well lubricated slide unless you wish to pick it up off the floor. So even if it were a professional player with a perfectly lubricated slide, there would have been some resistance due to the hand holding the slide in place.

Wow. It amazes me just how many trombonists jumped all over that myth! XD I like alot of the points made and I would definatly like to see a revist to this myth.

-- Although I'll admit it was funny when they blew the heck out of that junker, reminds me of what I wanna to do my PoS. XD

Anyway,I find that my self apointed job of pointing out mistakes in the myth has already been accomplished, so I'll pop off now! I hope that everyone out there is have a good ol' time and that you keep on jamin'!

I PRAY MYTHBUSTER TECHS READ THIS!!

I'm no tromboner, or care about horn instruments. I am going to give you a suggestion to re-re-visit the myth again.

This time, pull the slide out leaving 1 inch (25.4mm) of travel on the slide before it falls off. This would represent a very low note (or high?), so that is plausible.

The cross-sectional area and tensile strength of the material is too weak and the explosion is to powerful to fire the slide out(with is in there a couple feet of friction to overcome). With that 1 inch (25.4mm), the idea becomes more plausible.

I think this myth is plausible for several reasons...and thus it must be re-revisited.

1. The slide. As many of you have already mentioned, a properly lubricated slide will aid the propulsion of said slide off the trombone. And so I'm clear, a properly lubricated slide should slide off the trombone when held in a vertical (or even 45 degree angle) position due to ONLY the force of gravity. While we're talking about the slide, the slide does not "automatically" lock in 1st position, but please ensure the slide isn't locked when you conduct the experiment as it was in the original! If the slide is locked, of course it won't fly off the trombone, explosion or no explosion, it's not going anywhere.

2. The mouthpiece. Again, as many of you have mentioned, the lips on the mouthpiece do create not only a seal from the embouchre, but when playing, the pressure from the air going into the trombone, at around 2 atm depending upon the note(s) being played. Thus, what part does our trombonist play? If he's on 1st part, the "seal" will be greater as he needs more pressure on his embouchre to play higher. Furthermore, he also will need more air volume flowing though the horn to play the higher notes intune. If he's a bass trombone player (as I am), the "seal" will have less pressure due to the less pressure required to play the low notes, but also a greater amount of air required to play those notes in tune. A 2nd player will have a "medium-strength seal" and an average air flow due to the range he will be playing in, right in the middle of the horn's range, thus requiring neither higher or lower than average embouchre pressure or air flow.

3. Type of trombone. The mythbusters only tested "pea-shooter" student-model small-bore trombones. If this performance was by even a community orchestra, more than likely the trombone was at least a large-bore trombone. Would the results be different then?? Possibly. What about a large-bore tenor trombone with F-attachment? What about a bass trombone with dependent F and Gb valves? What about a bass trombone with independent F and Gb valves? And since we're on the valves, does the type of valve impact the results? Would a thayer valve differ from a Hagmann valve, from a rotor valve? There's a lot of options here. And since the performer used a mute...what kind? Was it a straight mute, a cup mute, a plunger mute, or a Harmon mute? What was the composition of the mute...wooden, metal? Each of these options would effect the result of the explosion.

4. The explosion. It is highly unlikely that an actual explosion took place - most musicians would be considerate enough for their fellow musicians to not put them potentially in harms way. Furthermore, in most states black powder is impossible to acquire, but rockets are not. But how about a rocket aimed at the conductor?

5. The conductor. The conductor will not fall over into the seats if he is being propped up from the front. This creates an unrealistic expectation, as the conductor wants to fall foward into the orchestra. Furthermore, I know of no self-respecting conductor who would conduct with such horrible posture. If you were able to prop the conductor up with some semblence of correct posture, he will be more likely to fall back into the audience.

While I love the show and think the Mythbusters do great work, they need to revisit this myth and take ALL considerations into account and use proper set-up and situations before declaring it busted.