quote:

Originally posted by Subductionzone:
When you start nit picking at a physics argument over English it is an indication that you are losing. The question was, ultimately, whether the belt could do anything to stop the plane from taking off, the answer is yes.

No, when you are the sole person sticking to a ridiculous concept, it is a sign you are losing. Furthermore, it is you that is sticking to language as opposed to intent. If the myth was as you stated, it isn't even a thought experiment as the definition of the myth is self sustaining to the answer. This is what I meant when I earlier told you that you were focusing on "can the treadmill stop the plane" versus the actual wording of "will the plane take off". There is a difference, and if you are not proficient enough with language, then you should surely not be the person championing the cause of the other alleged version.

You started this diversion over your need to get noticed, like Arnold Horshack screaming "Ooo, Ooo Ooo [pick me]". Well it has run its course and didn't pan out, so it is long overdue to let it die. Yes, you are getting your Arnold Horshack attention, but not in the way you think. People are not looking at you as being the sharp observer that spotted something no one else noticed. They have started looking at you as being too dense to let go of a losing battle.

Yes, your battle has been lost, but you have your blinders on too tightly to see what everyone else already sees. It is time to give it up and move on. Even your thought experiment has been shown to fail, but you ignore that solely so you can keep going on to gain your attention. The attention you are getting is not the positive kind.

Wrong again powertool. I am not the only one, KSquared did a lot of the hard math that you seem to want to ignore, he also was kind enough to do a better translation than I could do with babelfish. I was just pointing out a rather serious error done by the Mythbusters in this myth. They claim, and may even be right that the version they tested was the oldest version in English. But they totally ignored the alternate myth. And you like bflynn are ignoring the spirit of the original myth which was, and I am going to have to put additional words to the myth but they are implied by the answer "is there a force that a treadmill can put on a plane so that it won't take off?" the answer is yes, you have been given the answer, what is wrong with that?

quote:

ignoring the spirit of the original myth

Odd that after posting it, shipwreck never came back and told all those who said the plane would move because the belt can't oppose the thrust that they were wrong, now isn't it?

Or, at least I can never find him doing so.

Surely at some point he would have told everyone what the "spirit of the myth" was, wouldn't he?

I'll have to babel some more posts, I guess.

This show is on Discovery. The Mythbusters had a hard time getting the Discovery people to let them air this myth; the Discovery people (and most of the audience that the shows are directed towards, for that matter) want explosions, excitement, etc. There is none of that in this show (except maybe excitement, but whatever) and if they did put the "original" version in, as far as the Discovery people (and the audience the channel is directed at) are concerned, it's just babble. Go watch the Science Channel or something.

One more time, this is basic first year college level physics for physics majors. There were sites that had both versions of this myth before the show went on. The sites with the Russian version pretty much came to the same conclusion that KSqurared has posted, that the treadmill could do it, but you could not do it in the real world. It is a thought experiment. The version that the Mythbuster's tested is trivial. With that version you don't have to do hardly any math to see that the plane will take off. Both were equally popular on the web at the time of the broadcast. I don't know which was more popular in the 6 months before it aired, but they still ignored that version of the problem. If you don't understand the fairly simple physics in how the treadmill could hold back the plane don't blame me. It was a thought experiment much in the same vein as the question "What would happen if you drilled a hole through the Earth and dropped something through it?" That is not testable either but you can still answer the question. I don't think that they are about to try to do that one either, but the question still exists and can still be answered.

They should do a revisit with a souped-up van with a hollowed out floor, just to determine the force curve from rolling friction at speeds up to 100 MPH or of a weighted trolley on wheels to simulate the airplane.

Or, even better... they should make an actual treadmill that is powered by a high-powered automobile engine. They should be able to get that up to a couple hundred MPH that way, and much more safely.

Forget the treadmill and use a very long jet powered - flatbed trailer or boat deck. It would be simpler to build especially for a small plane.

quote:

Originally posted by Nanomyth:
Forget the treadmill and use a very long jet powered - flatbed trailer or boat deck. It would be simpler to build especially for a small plane.

No. The thread was gone - on the third page with no posts for 3 days.

You had to go look for it just to post that you should use a flatbed trailer?

I don't have the time to look on all 354 posts so:
-The conveyor belt was moving at x speed.
-The plane was moving forward (you can see the camera following it)
SO:The Belt speed was NOT equal to the plane speed.

Conclusion: Myth was presented poorly.
A stationary plane (belt speed = -plane speed) will never take off since no wind is passing over the wings to lift it up (anosis).
Any guy with simple physics knowledge will know what this means.

Ignore bout everything i just said

This forum is 354 pages long!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The insanity over this myth is crazy and the MythBusters have said they won't re-try it so just shut up. I am now casting shame on anyone who posts here from now on.
So,
Stop Posting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, you personally have decided that anyone who hasn't seen the episode yet (or just feels like commenting) is not allowed to comment on it in the proper place, despite Discovery thinking everybody has the right to post?

Do you realize what that makes you? It ends in "-hole".

quote:

Originally posted by kokrah:
I don't have the time to look on all 354 posts so:
-The conveyor belt was moving at x speed.
-The plane was moving forward (you can see the camera following it)
SO:The Belt speed was NOT equal to the plane speed.

Conclusion: Myth was presented poorly.
A stationary plane (belt speed = -plane speed) will never take off since no wind is passing over the wings to lift it up (anosis).
Any guy with simple physics knowledge will know what this means.

You're right. When the MBs did it, the belt was going faster than the plane.

FWIW, you do not measure plane speed by the speed the tires are moving. That discussion as well as the original Russian version of the myth and physics discussions of alternative versions of the Russian version repeated 20 or 30 times are what made this thread 354 pages long.

If you measure plane speed by the body moving forward, the plane flies as shown by the MBs.
If you measure plane speed by the speed of the wheels, then the plane can't move forwards because of the myth's preconditions. A plane that doesn't move obviously doesn't fly.

Neither one is worth 354 pages of commentary. But nobody reads what was already written, so what we really have here are 354 pages of people posting the same thing over and over.

quote:

Originally posted by roofingguy:
So, you personally have decided that anyone who hasn't seen the episode yet (or just feels like commenting) is not allowed to comment on it in the proper place, despite Discovery thinking everybody has the right to post?

Do you realize what that makes you? It ends in "-hole".

354 Pages,
Seriously?
Seems more like a Legal Document than forum to me.
But, Whatever continue if you must.
Just seems like a waste of manpower to post 354 pages of posts on something as trivial as this, but worse has been done.

P.S. Did you really have to go there?

It was really 10 pages of figuring it out what the myth meant, 4 pages of discussing what it meant and 340 pages of repeating it to everyone who came along and said "I don't have time read through all 14 pages that have already been written, so I think..."

If you measure plane speed by the body moving forward, the plane flies as shown by the MBs.

If you measure plane speed by the speed of the wheels, then the plane can't move forwards because of the myth's preconditions. A plane that doesn't move obviously doesn't fly.