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Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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quote:
Originally posted by balistics-for-m5:
So you're starting this back up again? Why?


In the vain hope that MB will revisit the myth. *Sighs* I think this is probably the second longest thread on a single topic on the board - after maybe plane-on-a-treadmill.

Pity nothing seems to have come from this Frown
Senior Member
Registered: 11-06-08
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Hey, if it doesn't get that bump every couple months, they'll NEVER notice it.

You're not alone; I'm keeping my fingers crossed as well. This one definately needs to be looked at again, if for no other reason then to make it clear that this isn't just a "pirate myth".
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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If they haven't noticed this by now they must be blind.
Senior Member
Registered: 07-04-07
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quote:
If they haven't noticed this by now they must be blind.


They have noticed it, they just don't want to revisit it. I don't know why, maybe because of time, or maybe because it was a rather large build, but they've done larger ones.

By the way, I, too, want this revisited, but figured that the Mythbusters wouldn't test it if they hadn't by now. There is a "Myths Revisited" episode coming up, but seeing that this myth wasn't mentioned, I doubt they are testing it again.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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I'd assume that if there is a problem with testing it is probably in getting a larger gun. They had enough trouble finding a six pound cannon, and while there are larger types around most couldn't be used and those that could are probably nowhere near M5.
Senior Member
Registered: 11-06-08
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I suspect that's it, Cyber.

I've been to quite a few black-powder shoots in northern California, and while I've seen many full-sized replica guns at them, they all have bores that are much smaller than you'd find on the real-deal. Not to say that they aren't around, just that they aren't the norm.

Which pretty much leaves building their own.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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Well, most re-enactment groups would (naturally) use cannons comparable to those used on land during the periods they look at. These guns were nowhere near the size of guns carried on larger ships - as I think I noted ages ago there were practical limits as to the size and weight of guns that could be moved overland and distance. So field guns for armies were smaller than those even a fairly small Frigate carried.

And of course the Carronade was, as far as I'm aware, not used on land. (Or at least not by armies. I think that they were often taken off ships and used to support troops if the Navy was either called in to help the army or doing the fighting itself).

About the only place that I can think of where you might be able to find a large Carronade and a 24 cannon would be the US Navy. Specifically the USS Constitution. Somehow I doubt that even if these guns are still capable of firing live shot the US Navy would loan them to Mythbusters.
Senior Member
Registered: 11-06-08
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quote:
So field guns for armies were smaller than those even a fairly small Frigate carried.


I was speaking strictly in terms of the ones I've seen at Mountain Man Rendezvous, where I believe the reason for the smaller bores (or so I was told, at any rate) is because most of the clubs that host them will not allow full-sized ammo to be fired at the range. So even the biggest replicas, which are built full-size for show, still have the barrel bored to a smaller-than-accurate diameter so they can be fired at rendezvous.
Senior Member
Registered: 02-08-06
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Wasn`t there a Carronade used by the Texans defending the Alamo?

I realise that the Guns that they had there were a mixed bag, of what they could get their hands on.
Junior Member
Registered: 09-27-09
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quote:
Originally posted by draco153:
[quote]My immediate problem on watching the pirate show, regarding the splinters specifically, is that I can't imagine you would ever be in a situation where you got one and only one cannonball shot to a ship.


My last post is a historical account where the merchant ship had 2 <count 'em> 2 guns to fire. With 2 pirate vessels in pursuit the captain only had one shot for each ship. Aiming at the rigging instead of at the hull had crippling effects on both the ships and her crew. So yes, there are and were cases where only one shot was available. Most merchant ships were not heavily armed at all. Once a ship can no longer move, she is not a threat to a fully maneuverable vessel. Wink

jmgrainger1812: I want your job! That sounds like fun! And my armchair research has turned up the same results of which you speak. The splinters and shrapnel had the ability to inflict mortal wounds ending the life of a sailer prematurely. [QUOTE]
Use grapeshot and chainshot. BOTH will give better shivering.
Also, Pine might be too soft to penetrate Hog flesh. Not ALL of the upper hull would be braced with pine. The Upper and Cannon decks would use only 1 layer of wood coated with pine sap/varnish. The lateral bracing would only be every few vertical feet, providing ample surface area for shivering/splintering the planks between. These planks would probably be 3-4 feet highand 3-8 inches thick.
Junior Member
Registered: 09-27-09
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Use grapeshot and chainshot. BOTH will give better shivering.
Also, Pine might be too soft to penetrate Hog flesh. Not ALL of the upper hull would be braced with pine. The Upper and Cannon decks would use only 1 layer of wood coated with pine sap/varnish. The lateral bracing would only be every few vertical feet, providing ample surface area for shivering/splintering the planks between. These planks would probably be 3-4 feet highand 3-8 inches thick.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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Chain shot was not used against the hull.

Pine seems to have been used for decking, not the hull.
Junior Member
Registered: 09-30-09
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I think people are not minding the purpose of combat. The purpose of combat is not to kill your enemy. The purpose of combat is to render your enemy unable continue resisting. By this definition a soldier injured to the point they can no longer fight and a dead soldier are the same. As recently as the American Civil War sailors covered the gun deck with material to prevent its becoming slick with blood during the fighting. Since active bleeding stops when the heart stops pumping this would imply that they were expecting a lot of wounds and a lot of blood. I don't think the lethality of the splinters is the issue, but how many sailor are losing eyes, having their hide shredded, and being blown about the deck to the point that they can no longer effectively fight. This is rather hard to messure. However, I noticed splinters in the Mythbusters test splintered along the grain meaning that the pigs being close to the hull were hit by the flats of the splinter far more often than the edges. Had they used more pigs or staggered their distance from the hull there would have been more wounded. Add to this the other items found on a gun deck that could easily have been turned into sharpnel and it is reasonable to believe than more sailors were taken out of action by splinters and other items turned to shrapnel than were killed or wounded by cannon balls.
Junior Member
Registered: 09-30-09
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15,000 casualties? The term casualtiy frequently refers to wound as well as the dead. Usually the wound out number the dead by a large margin. Anyone know the number of dead and wound in the battle of Trafalgar? I'm too lazy to try to Google it at the moment.

quote:
Originally posted by fidelito:
I'm definitely about two years too late on posting this, I realize, but this pirate splinter myth has always driven me crazy and I just had to vent for one brief moment. The myth busting was very well done and I think the guys did a very complete job. There has been an amazing discussion on it on these message boards, with a lot of good points being brought up on both sides. It just really has always bugged me that one ship, one cannon, and a few pigs allows someone to say that several hundred years of primary sources from pirates, travelers, ships logs, etc, are just thrown out the window. The battle of Trafalgar for example has nearly 15000 casualties in a single day. Since the British method of naval fighting was to sail as close as possible to their enemies and pour broadsides into them, they used just roundshot, as opposed to grape and chain. Horatio Nelson didn't allow marines into the upper areas of the ships, so no one shooting down upon the Spanish and French. So if this "myth" is busted, that means that broadsides of roundshot killed and wounded thousands and thousands of sailors. And also that the descriptions of the ships and the causes of death of thousands of these people were either blatant lies or just huge mistakes. With all due respect to Jamie and Adam, I'm going with the several hundred years of historical records. I certainly don't intend to reignite the debate that you guys already thoroughly discussed, I just had to get that off my chest.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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quote:
I think people are not minding the purpose of combat. The purpose of combat is not to kill your enemy. The purpose of combat is to render your enemy unable continue resisting.


British and American practice was to aim at the hull to kill the crew on the opposing ship.

French and Spanish practice was to aim at the masts and rigging to cripple a ship, then to move in and shoot at the hull to...kill the crew.

Either way if you aimed at the hull of a ship you were trying to kill the men on the deck.

quote:
As recently as the American Civil War sailors covered the gun deck with material to prevent its becoming slick with blood during the fighting.


Sand was put onto the decks prior to battle. This wasn't just done to soak up blood, but also to give the crew better footing overall. The last thing you want is for someone to slip on the deck while one of the cannons is recoiling.

quote:
Add to this the other items found on a gun deck that could easily have been turned into sharpnel and it is reasonable to believe than more sailors were taken out of action by splinters and other items turned to shrapnel than were killed or wounded by cannon balls.


A ship that was cleared for action would only have the guns and related equipment on the deck. 'Clearing for action' was meant literally, in that anything not required for fighting a ship was removed from the upper decks and put on the orlop on in the hold.

I do agree, and posted as such, about splinters most likely taking more men out of action than shot itself. Those records that I can recall about the number of killed and wounded men after a battle seems to indicate that for every sailor killed in the battle, there were three who were wounded.

The problem, however, is that such records indicate the state of affairs immediately after a battle. They do not include men who died from infection or complications in the days and weeks that followed.

quote:
Anyone know the number of dead and wound in the battle of Trafalgar?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar

British losses; 458 killed, 1,208 wounded.

French; 2,218 killed, 1,155 wounded.

Spanish; 1,025 killed,1,383 wounded.

Total killed; 3701

Total wounded; 3746

From accounts of the battle, and known Spanish/French tactics of firing high and using sharpshooters to aim at the crews with muskets. The discrepancy between the number of British men killed and wounded is most likely down to small-arms fire - HMS Victory had to pull the guncrews off her weatherdeck because they were taking heavy losses from French musketry.

Conversely the kill/wounded ratio on the French and Spanish ships must have been down to cannon fire into the hulls, since the British ships were not (as a whole) using musket-fire from the masts.

There are two points to note;

The casualty lists do not include those who were lost in the days and nights after the battle, including the storm that sank several of the ships.

The British held their fire until they were at point blank range, then fired triple-shotted guns into the stern of the French/Spanish ships. The very first shots from cannons were always the most effective, since more time had been spent loading the guns. This, coupled with raking the ships (Having the shot fly the full-length of the gundeck) accounts for huge casualties on the French/Spanish ships.
The British were also known to be able to fire faster and more accurately than anyone else at this point in history - both Nelson and his Second Collingwood expected their ships to be able to fire three accurate broadsides in five minutes.

For those wondering what a ship of the line would have been like in action check out this link for HMS Victory;

http://www.hms-victory.com/ind...view&id=175&Itemid=1
Junior Member
Registered: 11-28-08
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Since the "ship" moved when the cannonball hit wouldn't that mean the full force of the blast did not travel to the ship? I think it should have been anchored down better.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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That is a fair question and point. Certainly the hull of a real ship would have been considerably more rigid than their mockup was.

As to if this would have made a significant difference to the results is questionable.

Concerns have been raised about the test hull they used. But most of these concerns have been about the materials used - which would have had a greater *ahem* impact on the results.
Junior Member
Registered: 10-16-09
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PLEASE READ AND TAKE SOME ACTION!!!!Pig skin is way tougher than human. I you ever buy pig skin and try cutting it with a kitchen knife you will have a hard time doing so. Now if you are chopping something with that same knife and you're finger gets in the way im pretty sure u will see blood. so regarding this myth is very possible for pirates to get killed by splinters.
Junior Member
Registered: 11-28-08
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why not just use ballistic gel?
Senior Member
Registered: 09-01-07
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Pig skin being thicker than human skin has been noted before.

Ballistics gel is A; expensive and B; can melt. There is also the problem of getting a ballistic dummy to stand upright.
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