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Registered: 07-20-07
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Do bullets fired straight up come down with a lethal velocity?

Talk about it here!

MythMod
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Registered: 09-26-07
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I will say that bullets fired straight up may have lost enough of their velocity to not be lethal because of the direct pull of gravity in the opposite direction of travel on them but i say it would be impossible for any person using their arm(s) to fire a bullet exactly straight up without using an instrument of some sort. I would be interested to know the window of degrees off of being straight up would cause the bullet to maintain a higher velocity and come down with the head or point first because it seems like it would be very small. JON MYRTLE BEACH, SC
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This test was done in the past. Contact a magazine writer named Mike Venturino. As I remember when he did his tests he gained access to the Yuma Proving Grounds and the dopler radar at that site. This radar is capable of tracking individual bullets in the air.

I believe they found bullets fired straight up maintained their rotation and thus stability causing them to land on the base of the bullets and not to tumble as your show seemed to demonstrate.

Mr. Venturino's article was published by a major gun magazine (It may have been 'Shooting Times')

Thanks,

Mike
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coastern07's reply reminded me of another detail in Mr. Venturino's article. While at the proving grounds they also had access to one of the precision 'gun cradles' used to test all types of guns up to and including artillery pieces. This cradle gave them precise control of the angle on the barrel.
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Tonights experiment, shooting the bullet strait up in the air...the experiment in the desert didn't meet up with the results discussed in the hospital, where bullets did kill, and I think I may know why. Using the figure 2939 ft/s, (which may be high) from http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/MariaPereyra.shtml, you can calculate the minimum angle you would have to shoot the bullet to not only meet the terminal velocity in the y direction (up and down), but meet the terminal velocity in the x direction as well, which I'll assume from the show to be 150 ft/s. The velocity the bullet comes down at should be a combination (using the pythagorean theorem) of both the x velocity and the y velocity. So, instead of just the y velocity assumed to hit the ground at 150 ft/sec, you can combine the velocities in both the x and y direction to get a maximum possible velocity it could hit the ground:

Velocity in the x direction squared + Velocity in the y direction squared = total velocity it could hit the ground with.
or:
(Vx^2+Vy^2=Vtotal^2) = 212 ft/sec

This added velocity could account for the needed force to break the pig skull and experimental confirm the result. To achieve these velocities, you would have to fire a gun at as little as 3 degrees from the vertical to achieve both terminal velocities.

Admittedly, my physics may not be completely sound...fluid mechanics has never been my specialty, but if you can break it down like this, with a small angle of fire, you may be able to get that extra velocity needed to confirm this myth.
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Registered: 09-28-07
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quote:
Originally posted by coastern07:
I will say that bullets fired straight up may have lost enough of their velocity to not be lethal because of the direct pull of gravity in the opposite direction of travel on them but i say it would be impossible for any person using their arm(s) to fire a bullet exactly straight up without using an instrument of some sort. I would be interested to know the window of degrees off of being straight up would cause the bullet to maintain a higher velocity and come down with the head or point first because it seems like it would be very small. JON MYRTLE BEACH, SC
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I was about 16 years old (over 40 years ago) when I sat at the edge of a pond (about 50 ft across), with trees all around it, and aimed my .22 rifle (using long-rifle bullets) as straight up in the air as I could and pulled the trigger, hoping the bullet would land in the water. It was very quiet and thre was not even a breeze. The 1st 2 bullets landed in the trees on the other side of the pond. The 3rd landed with a thud right next to me, about 1 ft away. I think that would have been fatal if it had come down 1 ft to the left!

Bill Phoenix, AZ
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I will now say trader it's not totally impossible for a person to fire a bullet straight up because i've read a little more on the subject but like in the show, there is no way to tell if that bullet that landed next to you came down sideways and/or with enough velocity to be fatal. In my opinion a bullet would have to have a trajectory bringing it down point first, with more velocity, to be fatal.
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Registered: 09-30-07
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hi I'm probably posting to the wrong place again but its still worth a shot of at least guessing. oh rightey then back to business. the ninja blocking the bullet with his hand myth was done wrong. i am not one to complain but the ninja ware not around when the gun the myth buster used. yes there are ninjas around today but they are not used like they ware in times before the bullet. but when the gun came around the ninja training was stopped in the all the government because are close-medium range fighters. the gun or more so the small very fast moving projectile would be unseen to there eyes because of there limited sight. there is no way that a ninja could predict when to raise his hand and reflect the bullet. this was proven through japans and chines history of mastery swift silent killing.
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yep i posted it on the wrong part sorry but i hope every one reads it any way.
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Incomprehensible gibberish.
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I've seen this episode multiple times, nothing new at all. It is true that bullets fired dead 90 degrees aren't lethal. Only those fired at an angle are really deadly.

Anyone in the bullet's angle path is pretty much dead.
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I did not see this episode personally although I would love to. I have however discussed this problem mathematically in physics class. The basic principles which we considered in this are...

1) If fired straight up the force of gravity slowing the bullet as it rises would equal the force accelerating it as it drops back to Earth so without the other factors mentioned below The bullet would hit the ground with the same force that it left it.

2) Air friction would rob the bullet of inertia both as it rose and fell.

3) The coreolis effect would prevent a bullet fired straight up from landing at the same spot it was fired from. (i.e. the time from firing the round to the time of impact {T}, multiplied by the rotational speed of the Earth {R} would equal the distance between the firing point and the impact point {D} T*R=D)

These are why the bullet fired at a 3 degree angle had a greater impact than the bullet fired straight up. The angle counteracted the coreolis effect which meant that more of the energy/distance was expended directly against the pull of gravity and less lost to air friction. Also, Bernouli's principle would cause a low pressure zone at the rear of the bullet which could overcome the centripedal force of the bullet's rotation causing it to invert and come down point first.
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quote:
1) If fired straight up the force of gravity slowing the bullet as it rises would equal the force accelerating it as it drops back to Earth so without the other factors mentioned below The bullet would hit the ground with the same force that it left it.


Incorrect. The bullet is propelled upwards at a much higher velocity than it will have coming downward. The reasons are the accelerating forces and terminal velocity. A bullet is propelled upward by the burning powder in the barrel, yeilding incredible acceleration and very high launch velocity. As the bullet goes up, two things act to slow it down: gravity and aerodynamic drag. When the bullet comes back down, the acceleration is due to gravity, which is nowhere near as strong as the propolsion the powder gave the bullet. As the bullet accelerates down, drag builds up to the point that the acceleration of gravity and the drag forces are equal. After this point, the bullet will not accelerate any more.

quote:
2) Air friction would rob the bullet of inertia both as it rose and fell.


I think you may be confusing inertia and velocity.

quote:
3) The coreolis effect would prevent a bullet fired straight up from landing at the same spot it was fired from. (i.e. the time from firing the round to the time of impact {T}, multiplied by the rotational speed of the Earth {R} would equal the distance between the firing point and the impact point {D} T*R=D)


While the Coreolis Effect may cause the bullet to not impact at its launch point, winds and minute deviations from vertical will have a far greater effect. Further, the Coreolis effect will have very, very little impact on the bullet's velocity component.

quote:
These are why the bullet fired at a 3 degree angle had a greater impact than the bullet fired straight up. The angle counteracted the coreolis effect which meant that more of the energy/distance was expended directly against the pull of gravity and less lost to air friction.


Again, incorrect and actually contradicting yourself.

The reason why bullets fired at an angle return to Earth with a larger velocity component than those fired straight up is that the bullet never reaches minimum velocity.
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Master Sergeant, You need to read more carefully! I said
"1) If fired straight up the force of gravity slowing the bullet as it rises would equal the force accelerating it as it drops back to Earth so without the other factors mentioned below The bullet would hit the ground with the same force that it left it"
The aerodynamics ARE then mentioned below!

On your next correction you say that I
quote:
may be confusing inertia and velocity.
Inertia divided by mass = velocity. I could have mentioned either but I went with inertia because the math is easier using inertia rather than velocity.

As for wind and minute variations from vertical vs. the coreolis effect, I was leaving minor variables out of the equation. A simple plumb measurement could minimize the variations from vertical and a calm day would do the same for windage. Additionally The varied directions of air currents at varying altitudes tend to cancel each other out as any good hot air balloonist knows.

And finally you state that I contradict myself and then you mention "minimum velocity", by this I imagine you mean zero relative velocity (as nothing in the universe is at an actual stand still). And actualy, the only way the projectile can reach zero relative velocity is if it is fired at the appropriate angle to counteract the coreolis effect. Otherwise it travels a greater relative distance, penetrating a greater overall distance through the atmosphere and experiencing more air friction or "drag" as you refer to it.

I would also suggest that in my limited understanding of aerodynamics, if the launch velocity were greater than terminal velocity ( i.e. where "drag builds up to the point that the acceleration of gravity and the drag forces are equal.")then the projectile would have reached escape velocity and wouldn't come back down at all. On this I might be mistaken.
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quote:
Master Sergeant, You need to read more carefully!


I did read it carefully. Which is why I responded the way I did.

For example you say "inertia" and that air friction would "rob the bullet of inertia". It is clear from this that you don't know what inertia is. Inertia is the property of an object to remain stationary or at constant velocity unless acted upon by an outside force. Inertia is not quantifiable per se.

You go on to say that "Inertia divided by mass = velocity". This is incorrect. Momentum divided by mass = velocity.

quote:
I would also suggest that in my limited understanding of aerodynamics, if the launch velocity were greater than terminal velocity ( i.e. where "drag builds up to the point that the acceleration of gravity and the drag forces are equal.")then the projectile would have reached escape velocity and wouldn't come back down at all. On this I might be mistaken.


Very mistaken.

Sorry, but if you were to make your original post or the above post in a paper for a basic physics class, you would get an F on the paper.
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quote:
Originally posted by darkseeker:
Master Sergeant, You need to read more carefully! I said
"1) If fired straight up the force of gravity slowing the bullet as it rises would equal the force accelerating it as it drops back to Earth so without the other factors mentioned below The bullet would hit the ground with the same force that it left it"
The aerodynamics ARE then mentioned below!

On your next correction you say that I
quote:
may be confusing inertia and velocity.
Inertia divided by mass = velocity. I could have mentioned either but I went with inertia because the math is easier using inertia rather than velocity.

As for wind and minute variations from vertical vs. the coreolis effect, I was leaving minor variables out of the equation. A simple plumb measurement could minimize the variations from vertical and a calm day would do the same for windage. Additionally The varied directions of air currents at varying altitudes tend to cancel each other out as any good hot air balloonist knows.

And finally you state that I contradict myself and then you mention "minimum velocity", by this I imagine you mean zero relative velocity (as nothing in the universe is at an actual stand still). And actualy, the only way the projectile can reach zero relative velocity is if it is fired at the appropriate angle to counteract the coreolis effect. Otherwise it travels a greater relative distance, penetrating a greater overall distance through the atmosphere and experiencing more air friction or "drag" as you refer to it.

I would also suggest that in my limited understanding of aerodynamics, if the launch velocity were greater than terminal velocity ( i.e. where "drag builds up to the point that the acceleration of gravity and the drag forces are equal.")then the projectile would have reached escape velocity and wouldn't come back down at all. On this I might be mistaken.


Absolute gibberish combined with a complete lack of understanding what terminal velocity is or inertia.

Inertia is in effect the same as mass. Mathematically it is the ratio of the force applied to an object to the resulting acceleration it undergoes i.e.

Inertia = Force applied/ Resultant acceleration which is effectively an object's mass.

Your definition is utterly wrong.

Your obsession with coreolis effect is completely invalid. It is has a tiny effect on the issue considered.

A bullet fired at 3 degrees from the vertical would have exactly the same impact on the ground as one fired exactly vertical.
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Perhaps your understanding of physics is superioir to mine, Probabaly is since most of mine comes from recreational reading. However, when you state...
quote:
A bullet fired at 3 degrees from the vertical would have exactly the same impact on the ground as one fired exactly vertical.
I must wholeheartedly disagree. If the bullet has indeed reached 'terminal velocity' vertically there is still a difference in horizontal velocity. The bullet fired at an angle would have significant horizontal velocity and the one fired straight up would have almost no horizontal velocity. The vertical velocity of both bullets might be the same but The impact upon the ground is a combination of the horizontal and vertical velocities.
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The horizontal velocity of a bullet fired at 3 degrees below vertical is at the point of the bullet leaving the muzzle

Vhorizontalmuzzle = Vmuzzle Cos 87

The Vmuzzle for M16A assault rifle is 975 m s-1, so

Vhorizontalmuzzle = Vmuzzle Cos 87
= 975 *0.05
= 51 m s-1

This velocity in the horizontal direction will be attenuated to effectively 0 by the end of the trajectory at the point of the bullet's return to earth as a result of aerodynamic drag.

So a bullet fired at 87 degrees will have almost exactly the same velocity on return to earth as a bullet fired at 90 degrees.
Reg
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I posted a note on this earlier in the wrong slot. Here goes. This subject has been dealt with by the US Army. Extensive experiments and studies were made by the Ordanance Dept. An eight page chapter (pp. 510-518) describing and summarizing the results can be found in a classic firearms text titled Hatcher's Notebook, 3 Ed. (1962) Stackpole. The book was written by Julian Hatcher, Major General, US Army (Ret.). He was one of the foremost ordanance and ballistics experts of his day and either conducted or supervised many of the experiments discussed therein.
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