I JUST FINISHED WATCHING TODAY'S EPISODE OF "ANIMAL PLANET HEROES: PHOENIX". HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU EUTHANIZE A BEAUTIFUL DOG JUST BECAUSE HE DEMONSTRATES DOMINANCE??????? YOU CAN TEACH ANY DOMINANT DOG TO BECOME SUBMISSIVE. YOU EITHER NEITHER NEED TO GET NEW EVALUATORS, HIRE A SPECIALIST TO WORK WITH THE DOG, OR IF ALL ELSE FAILS, CALL THE "DOG WHISPERER"!!!!! I COULD NOT BELIEVE THIS WHEN I SAW THIS. AM I FURIOUS ABOUT THIS, ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!! GET SOME BETTER STAFF TO TRAIN THESE TYPES OF ANIMALS!!!!!! JENNPENN
I want to do something about this. This is why I came online today! I am very upset. I want to adopt that dog. He is not viscious! Why don't they first check to see if anyone wants him before they euthanize him! Did you see the dog giving the administrator kisses and affection just before she tried to take his pig ear away?! He was a sweet dog. That is murder. 1st- who is that lady? 2nd- call the dog whisperer and tell him about it. 3rd- lets make sure she doesn't euthanize him. If they proceed with this kind of inhumane behavior after all those workers tried to save him, somebody should be fired or sued. It is a life they are taking, a life....they forget that...
Suzanne Jackoby- animal 'behaviorist'. She is the one who did it. I have it on tape. My dog and my neighbor's dog also display this behavior when you try to take their food. Should they be euthanized too? Better yet Suzanne, would you like me to provide a list of dogs for you to euthanize so you can feel like you are powerful and in charge? Are you the only one who is knowledgeable on the subject of analyzing dog behavior, or are you just the only one without a conscience? Good luck to you. Get a conscience!
JENNPENN I AGREE WITH YOU I THINK THE SAME WAY A DOG WHO IS DOMINANT CAN BE CHANGE LOOK AT THE DOG WHISPERER HE CHANGES DOGS AND I BELIEVE A DOG SHOULDNT BE PUT DOWN ANYONE CAN WORK WITH THE DOG AND PURHAPS CHANGE THEM!! I WATCHED THIS SHOW ON HOW THERES THIS ORGANIZATION THAT TAKES NOT WANTED DOGS AND THEY WORK WITH THEM INTILL THEY ARE FIX THEY DONT PUT THEM TO SLEEP!!
This is posted to multiple threads because it applies to each of them:
First, I want to start off by saying I have been married to an EAMT since the EAMT program began (But I am on the outside looking in). In saying that, I have had so many of the very same questions you all have asked and expressed, and believe me it wasn't a pleasant conversation when I asked them!! But after hearing it from the inside, I have to admit, I did change some of the ways I had been thinking! (Some) In my questions, I asked, well why don't you foster the dog until he or she is ready for adoption, and the reply was on any given day they take in over 120 animals..... IN ONE DAY, EVERY DAY.... when faced with the total number for the year - about 45,000 - I was floored~! FLOORED~!!! The person I talked to explained it to me by saying ok if you have one kennel and two dogs and one shows no aggression at all and the second dog does which dog should you save? I answered with BOTH~! I said I would volunteer and help that animal to get them ready for adoption. He said ok, now, you have 20 more evaluations to do that day. What do you do with all of those dogs? And then what about tomorrow? And the next day? And the next day? The phone got real quiet and I heard him sniffle which I can only interpret as a lump in his throat, he said that, "this is what we all have to deal with on a daily basis!!! And it sucks!" While I started out with many of the same opinions that many of you have, hearing what a large volume of animals the AHS has to deal with on a daily, monthly, and yearly basis, they changed a little. I still would like to have seen that dog get a good home, now I better understand why they are forced to make the decisions they make.
rufus2 "you dont need to save the public you just need to find someone who will take the time to work with that animal." The problem is the with the numbers that they have to deal with the AHS does not have the room to hold all of these animals until "someone" comes by. They are not perfect, but who of us is, and they do the very best they can. Mistakes are made and tough decisions are made. I said it before, I am glad that they are there for ALL of the 45,000 abused, neglected, and unwanted animals that pass through their doors EVERY YEAR.
Incidentally, since this episode was produced, another 65,000 or so abused, neglected, sick, injured, or unwanted animals have passed through the doors of the AHS.
Though I'm not a fan of dogs, it's more than likely that after the show aired the dog was euthanized. The Arizona Humane Society isn't the only one that euthanizes in the case of vicious animals. I also believe Maricopa County Animal Care & Control would also make thesame decision to put down a vicious dog if the animal was deamned dangerous to the public as well as other animals.
On the flip side though, with all the money that the AHS receives in donation they could hire outside behavioral specialists to work with the difficult cases. They also could work a lot more closely with the smaller rescues which might have the resources and time to work with difficult animals. It's surprising that the AHS doesn't work to become no-kill especially since they get more donations than any animal rescue group locally. A lot of no-kill shelters have proven that the philosophy works and enabled many animals to get good and loving homes despite the financial burdens they're facing. It would be a great boost to the lives of animals if the AHS adopted a no-kill policy. It certainly would encourage AC&C to do it. AC&C was close at one time but when they had a change in management that was all gone. Luckily, AC&C works with the no-kill groups to facilitate animals on the euthanasia list to be placed with them so they get a second chance.
You know Cat I was expecting your comment but I didn't except you to through the AHS & the EAMT'S under the bus!! We know each other in a scene that we are both aware of each other likes and dislikes, however the things that are being said on here are totally uncalled for! I know you don't really like the AHS but even YOU know how hard they try to save as many animas as they can! I wish I really wish that you start your own no kill shelter, hell I will even give you a donation to help get you started and then I will come back in about 6 months to see how well you have done! Then and only then will I give you the respect that you cant give the AHS. & THE EAMT'S..
I am so mad right now I can hardly see strait.. YOU ARE NOT THERE DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY.......... YOU ARE NOT THERE TO SEE THEM CRY TO SEE MY HUSBAND WHO HAS DEDICATED HIS LIFE TO COME HOME AND JUST CRY........I would LOVE TO TO SEE OF YOU PEOPLE ON HERE THAT FOUND IT SO EASY TO PUT DOWN THE ENDLESS HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS OF WORK THAT THEY ALL PUT THEMSELVES THROUGH!! I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU ALL TO RESCUE ANY ANIMAL JUST TO FIND OUT THAT WHAT YOU DID JUST WASN'T ENOUGH OR TAKE IN A FEW STRAY CATS AND FORM A BOND WITH ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT THEY HAVE FELINE PANLEUKAPENIA LEUKEMIA AND AS YOU SHOULD KNOW WOULD KILL EVERY SINGLE CAT THEY HAVE BUT NOW YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO PUT THEM DOWN AS YOU ARE HOLDING HER BEAUTIFUL BODY IN YOUR ARMS AS YOUR TIRES FALL ON TO HER BEAUTIFUL BODY BECAUSE YOU TOLD HER YOU WOULD NOT LEAVE HER SIDE!!!!!! If you can find a way to be a no kill please please PLEASE buy all mean tell me so I can pass that information along to them please do that for me.................................
Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade Starr. Not everyone is going to post something that someone else will like.
I'd love to start a no-kill organization for cats however I better spend my time trying to help their causes. There are many no-kill organiztions that have been effective in this state and have helped rescue a lot of animals. Do they get their own show like the AHS does? Do they get the financial backing the AHS gets? Do they get even half the donations the AHS does? The answer is really no.
A lot more organizations deserve to be recognized. The AHS doesn't have to put animals down, they choose to because they think they have to. Even AC&C has been criticized for this by the public but that organization has also worked with the no-kills allowing them to rescue many animals from the euthanasia list.
You may not think I've never experienced losing an animal after fighting to save them but you'd be wrong. I've seen the losses even in my own home. My cat Jade which I rescued 6 years ago and gave a good life passed away due to extreme kidney failure just after New Years. She was in a bad situation before I rescued her and as much as I miss her, I feel good knowing she had a good home for those 6 years.
Starr, I know you're passionate about the AHS because your husband works there but you have to know others aren't going to share the same view you do. One doesn't have to be in a shelter day after day to know that animals need to be saved.
I have very good reason for supporting the no-kills. They work very hard to ensure that every cat has a good homes and many of them often have no shelter facility to work from and they pay for the vet care, food, etc out of not only the donations and adoption fess but much of the time out of their own pocket. I also believe in helping the little guy. I think it'd be great if more of them were given the same opportunities that the AHS gets in promoting them. I think Animal Planet should take the Heroes Phoenixshow and focus on the smaller groups. Some pretty amazing stories have come out of those groups and I've seen some first hand.
I think the no-kill philosophy when it comes to shelters is the route to go. The no-kill groups. You asked how one could go no-kill, the answer has been given time and time again. Look at AAWL, Benji's Buddies, Sun Cities 4 Paws, Sun Cities Animal Rescue, Foothills Animal Rescue, AZ Rescue, and many of the other no-kill organizations. They've been very successful in getting animals placed in good and loving homes. Some of the animals even have behavioral or medical issues. A lot of them are able to help these animals and don't even get 2% the money the AHS receives. They also don't have their own vet staff like the AHS has so they often have to work with private vets. Nonetheless, the answer in the AHS becoming no-kill is simple. Go and learn from the smaller groups. I know it's hard for the larger groups out there to grasp the concept but there are things the little ones can teach the bigger ones.
In fact, if the AHS were to become no-kill they'd form a stronger partnership with the smaller rescues and even make a stronger impact with the public. I'm starting to see more and more people who are looking to adopt from no-kills and if they have to surrender an animal actually want to call the no-kills first to see if they have room. Some are doing it because they fear if they go to County or the AHS then they may get euthanized due to lack of space. Feral cats and their offspring certainly meet this fate at both places. Thanks to groups like AzCATs however, they've had to work hard to convince both the public and the larger rescue organizations that aren't no-kill that euthanasia isn't the answer when an animal can indeed be saved.
Going no-kill is a choice. The AHS with all the donations and support they receive could very easily go no-kill and thus save even more animals. The no-kill groups have managed to make it work so I can't see why County and the AHS couldn't go that route.
BTW, for those that are confused about no-kill this might clear things up. No-kills will give space and refuge for those animals that need good and loving homes. They are kept in the shelter or with the rescue organization for as long as they need to be until they're adopted. If an animal is in such poor health or has an ailment which is beyond what we would call savable or recoverable then usually the decision of euthanasia can happen. This is a decision every human that has a four-legged love one has to make eventually. We're supposed to be the caretakers. Enough said.
Cat, We've been throgh this before, so I don't think there is a need to do it again. We can agree to disagree. But, I want to make a few things clear:
1. The AHS does work with smaller rescue groups to place animals, many of those that MCAC&C works with,
2. Those groups pick and choose the animals they want to work with, leaving someone else (AHS or MCAC&C) to deal with the rest,
3. Why don't the other rescues you talk about (the ones that take animals off MCAC&C's euthanasia list) take ALL of the animals off of MCAC&C's euthanasia list? The one's they don't take are left to be put to death aren't they?
4. No kill is not really used much in the animal welfare field any more, because as you say, most do have to euthanize animals at times. The term used now is "limited admission." "Limited" referring to the fact that they limit their intake to the animals they want,
5. Do you know of any open door "limited admission" facilities? I doubt it, because the name itself is contradictory. AHS is an open door facility, and many of the animals they get in are there because there is no room at (or their animal isn't wanted by) the limited admission facilities.
6. AHS would love to be a no kill facility, but with the state of animal welfare in the Valley, it is not possible for them to do so. We can all hope that it can be done in the future,
and,
7. Not that I have to justify myself, but I and my family have been longtime donors to AAWL.
I'm sorry that we have to continue to have these same back and forth posts, but you often write as if you are an authority on the AHS. Neither of us is, but I'm a lot closer to it than you, and I can give a better perspective on what goes on there on a day to day basis.
FYI - Happily, Marisa McHugh has been back with the AHS for quite some time.
Cat, you have my word, and I truly mean this, that tomorrow morning I will gather together all of the information I can and pitch a show to Animal Planet about the smaller rescues here in the Valley. I don't know if anyone else has done this, but if it works, I think it would be great.
Now, unless I read you posting things that are just not true (not opinion) I will gracefully bow out of this thread, and leave it to everyone reading to decide for themselves. SSC
Starr. We can agree to disagree. I know you are a big fan of the AHS because your husband works there but eventually you need to look at the big picture here. I'm not speaking as a grand authority of the AHS but I am in the know as to what is going on.
The smaller groups and even Maricopa County Animal Care & Control have been shoved into the background for quite a long while. The AHS shouldn't be the only one that gets the stories or their own show. Most of the media stories seem to be on the AHS when so many other groups in the Phoenix metro area work hard to rescue animals. Don't you think it's about time that the AHS steps back and allows the smaller ones to shine?
I find it interesting that you mention that the no-kills pick and choose the animals they want to work with. Isn't the AHS doing the same thing if they euthanize an animal that could be saved with a little time and effort? One example is feral cats and their kittens. The AHS in the past just automatically euthanized them. Now, because of the efforts of groups like AzCATs these cats have a chance to live. It took a long time for that group to convince both the AHS and AC&C that trap, neuter, return was the best and only way to deal with the feral cat population. You can't just euthanize them and hope that controls the population.
As for the groups taking all of the animals off the euthanasia list, many would like to but there wouldn't be one if the organization was no-kill. It's a choice to become no-kill. As I stated before many of these groups have been able to place animals into good and loving homes . They're also able to do it without the vast resources and money that the AHS has.
As far as "limited admission" shelters, isn't the AHS considered one? Yes, they do pick and choose which animals they keep for adoption and which ones they get euthanized. County is the same way. The difference is County has a good working relationship with the smaller rescues in getting as many animals off the euthanasia list as possible. There seems to be more groups working with AC&C than the AHS.
If the AHS wants to be no-kill they could probably easily become one. They certainly get plenty of money and if they work to strengthen the relationship with the smaller groups it very much could succeed. I've talked with quite a number of them and they would love for the AHS to become no-kill. Right now I'm seeing a lot more people going to the no-kills to adopt an animal. There are people that believe in supporting the little guy.
I think it's nice that you support the AAWL and should be commended for that. This is a great organization which has been seeing some rough financial times. They've been a voice in the Valley for no-kill for a long time. They are the oldest and largest no-kill facility in Arizona.
As for pitching the idea to Animal Planet giving them their own show that's great, but why can't they just take the Animal Planet Heroes: Phoenix show and cover all the rescues instead of just the AHS? Sure, from time to time they bring in one of the rescues but in my opinion aren't all of them considered heroes? To have this show mainly cover the AHS is kind of a bummer. In my opinion, they could move on to the smaller rescues now in Phoenix as they've covered enough stories of the AHS and EAMTs for the show. Everyone now knows about them. It'd probably also save Animal Planet money to move onto the smaller groups because they wouldn't have to produce an entirely new show just for the smaller ones. But if they don't go for that then have them call me. I could probably help them get in touch with some of the no-kills in the Valley that the radio station networks with.
BTW, before it gets brought up, Cat Galaxy was going to be working on another internet reality TV show for cats which covered the smaller rescues but it got shelved a bit. Hopefully, at some point we can do this but money is always a factor as well as having the right equipment for the job. However, if you want to help on this Starr it'd be welcomed. It'd be great to have enthusiastic people with a handy video camera to help. Cheers!
I being an animal rehabilitator know that all animals can't be saved. It makes me cry when an animal can't be saved. It also makes me cry to see what animals go through just watching the Animal Cops shows. I can see how hurt the people are. There are also so many animals that don't get reported and die every day of starvation or die getting beat to death. It's sad that every day there are so many. I know where all people are coming from but from my perspective you have to understand that all of them can't be saved and stop badgering the ones who are trying to help. I have saved many and I have lost many. I myself own PitBulls and many people think that there breed should be wiped of the earth I very much disagree and I hope that the States in the US start evaluating on an individual basis and stop attacking the breed. So I have to say that I most agree with Starrsoapand Candle, LEAVE THE OFFICERS ALONE THEY ARE DOING THE BEST THAT THEY CAN, QUIT HARASSING THE OFFICERS AND ATTACK THE PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS TO THERE ANIMALS!!!! Jennifer
I have not commented on this forum before, but after reading this thread, I thought it was necessary.
I was a resident of Arizona for almost 20 years, a volunteer at AHS, MCAC, AAWL, AZ Rescue, and several other limited and open admission facilities.
I am now a resident of Atlanta, GA while attending grad school and am known as a death row rescuer. Basically, I drive hours and hours all over georgia pulling animals about to be down for different rescues all over the state. I average about 150-300 dollars a week just on gas. I am not a rescue, just a student who cares about animals. Being in Georgia has given me a unique perspective on animal control situations in other parts of the country.
First, some facts.
Arizona has not had a SINGLE euthanization due to space (aka an euthanization of what is categorized as an adoptable animal) in the last 5 years-in any shelter (AHS, MCAC, etc). Their current goal is eliminate the euthanizations of all animals categorized as treatable/manageable within the next 5 years and they have a grant from Maddie's Fund to help achieve this goal.
AHS is an open admission shelter. That means they need to have room for every animal turned over to them. AHS is legally not allowed take any healthy strays over 3 months, they must go to MCAC. This means that a majority (I believe around 80%) of their animals are from owner surrenders. The rest are young animals or animals that are injured or victims of abuse. They have to take all of these animals in and make sure they have space for them.
The reason AHS is featured instead of the smaller no-kill rescues is because they are the ones responsible for handling injury and abuse cases. No offense, but watching animals being pulled from shelters and then adopted would not make for "dramatic tv." TV Producers want to showcase something that is dramatic as possible, and injury/abuse cases are more of pull. I know other shelters take in injured and abused animals, but AHS is usually the one who handles these and who has a segment dedicated solely for this purpose. It sucks, I don't agree with it, but thats TV.
AHS has a full time employee and a committee of volunteers who work trying to get animals networked to the limited admission shelters. They contact shelters about animals they think they other shelter would take and try to get the animals out of there. They also have a full time staff member who tries to get animals who get sick at the shelter (kennel cough, shelter depression, etc) out of the shelter and into foster homes. These people are not just sitting on their butts; they are actively working to get the animals into a safer environment.
Many no-kill rescues are very selective in the animals that they take. Not all are, but some definitely are picky. AAWL is the largest no kill shelter and they are not picky, they will take almost any animal, but they only adopt 2-3 dogs out a day (maybe 5-6 on weekends). When AHS takes in over 200 animals a day and MCAC also takes in much more than 200 animals a day, those numbers add up. There are simply not enough no-kill shelters to handle the volume of animals that AHS/MCAC take in.
Unfortunately, I have learned the following lesson the hard way after rescuing in Georgia, at the current time, animal rescue is a numbers game. Now this is not a popular idea, but it happens to be right, so I encourage you to read with an open mind. The ultimate goal is save all adoptable, treatable, manageable animals. However, since that is not possible at the current time, the goal is to maximize the amount of animals saved. If a dog comes in, who is dog aggressive and must be housed alone, should he be put down or kept alive? I know someone spoke of similar situations and in one the dog was left alive and in the other, the dog was put down right away. First of all, these are not totally sequential, tv shows have segments from many different time periods. It is very possible that they had more space available when one dog came in, then when the other came in. Also, would you rather hang onto a dog who must be kept in a kennel alone than a dog who can be housed with other dogs? First of all, many of these places (AHS included) have large kennels designed to hold multiple dogs. If a dog is taking up one kennel, how many other dogs could be put in that kennel that the dog is taking up? Also, it is much harder to get a dog aggressive dog a home than a dog who gets along with other dogs. Many potential adopters are multiple dog owners and would not be able to take this animal. That means that this animal will not only be taking up the space of 4 other dogs, but it will be there longer than most animals because it will be harder to adopt out. I will use my foster dog as an example. He is a boxer/pit mix and is a gorgeous dog. He is house trained, crate trained, knows tons of tricks and reasonably sized at 40 pounds. He also happens to be the sweetest big lap dog and is, in almost every sense, the epitome of the perfect dog. However, he used to be a bait dog for dog fighting and is terrified and very dog-aggressive. I have taken him to many behavior specialists and dog trainers and he is still dog aggressive. I cannot get him adopted. Many of the other foster's dogs have been in and out since I have been fostering this dog. He is truly an amazing dog and sometimes certain behaviors cannot be corrected. His dog aggression is the only thing keeping him from being adopted. Now, I love my dog very much and will be very sad when he does get adopted, but how many more dogs could I have been fostering? I could have been able to foster multiple dogs at a time instead of just one. I know there are owners for who dog aggression is not a problem, they just happen to be in the minority. Is it worth it to keep the one dog w/ an aggression problem who will take up the room of potentially hundreds of dogs (depending on how long is takes for the dog aggressive dog to be adopted), from a numbers perspective? No! To maximize the amount of animals adopted, ideally you want to get as many highly adoptable animals as possible. It sucks, it makes me sad and it breaks my heart, but it is the unfortunate reality. I can't tell you the number of times I have been pulling on kill days and can't take an animal b/c I know it will be hard to get it adopted. I have had to look into too many eyes and say I am sorry I cannot take you because you are a big dog, or because you are black, or because you are a pit mix. It is heart breaking and kills me every time I have to do it.
Georgia kills over 90,000 animals a year. This is relative to Arizona's 50,000, and Arizona takes in many more animals. I have been to many shelters in GA who simply do not care about the animals whatsoever. Who look at me trying to pull animals as a nuisance b/c I create too much paperwork. Not all of the shelters are like that (some are amazing), but there are definitely those who could not care about the animals.
Georgia still has shelter that use GAS CHAMBERS and HEARTSTICKS animals. If you aren't familiar with these methods of euthanization, look them up. It will make you cry and it is a horrible thing to witness. I have seen animals who I was rescuing and, due to a paperwork mix-up, they had thrown the animal into the gas chamber. I ran back there and had them yank him out. He was spasming and screaming. We were able to get him help and he was adopted by a loving family, but it was truly a horrible thing to witness.
As someone who is on the front lines, I must say that I think Arizona is doing an amazing job in its rescue efforts and I commend all those involved. The only difference between Arizona and the situations in the northeast, who tend to have much better numbers in terms of euthanizations, is the population itself. The northeast has much stricter legislation on spaying/neutering and not as many owner turn-ins. Arizona even pays, PAYS, any pit owner $20 to spay/neuter their pit. I have offered to pick people's dogs up for them and drive them to the clinic and give them the money, and they still won't. Until people change their mindset about spay/neuter policies, realize that animals are not disposable, and leave the breeding to responsible, knowledgeable breeders who only breed for the betterment of the line, Arizona will have to continue playing the numbers game to maximize animals being saved.
You should commend those who have to make the difficult decisions every day on who to save and who they cannot save. Trust me, they truly care about the animals. I have seen just how bad it can be and it has made me realize what a great job they are doing. Georgia and Arizona have similar population sizing and climate, yet Arizona has half the euthanizations that Georgia does. Rescues work very hard in both areas, but-in my opinion-the largest difference is the attitude of the people at the pounds there. As I said before, some pounds are super helpful and the workers truly care, but many do not. I have yet to come across that at AHS or any other Arizona shelter. As I said before, it is easy to criticize those who make the difficult decisions, but until you are in the front lines and see the reality of the situation, you can't really understand what goes into those decisions. They are thought out and euthanization is avoided whenever possible. As I have said several times, it is a numbers game.
I welcome any responses to this post, even those who disagree. I have an open mind and if someone presents an opposing view that I feel is legit, I am usually very inclined to change my opinion. However, please read my post very carefully as it is long, but there is a lot of information within it and many points have been addressed. It is a personal pet peeve of mine when people respond who obviously have not read my post and tell me how wrong I am. All I ask is that you read
Again, the biggest enemy of animals currently is the public. Until perceptions are changed, we will not be able to live in a no-kill society. Please, educate your fellow man and explain animals are not disposable who should be returned when they are no longer cute, or fuzzy, or when they no longer match the carpet (yes this has happened). I have seen people come to pick up their previously "deeply loved" show poodle at the pound. The dog had been a stray for awhile so the coat was very matted and it had been shaved down upon reaching the shelter. The owners no longer wanted their dog b/c it had been shaved. I witness more and more of these stories everyday and it disgusts me how inhumane people can be. Please help educate, that is the greatest and easiest contribution you can make!
If you know of someone who wants to breed their animal, please have them read:
