Please, Please, Please test this myth.

I am a Physician, and this myth is driving me crazy. I am getting bombarded with patients wanting to use Alkaline "Kangen" water for every ailment, and they also try to get me involved in the MLM scam that utilizes it. They claim it alkalizes your body which is supposedly healthy???

It a nutshell.. the "Kangen Water" people claim that alkaline water cures everything, is an antioxidant, and cleanses and detoxifies your body. They claim "Alkaline water is better for you, and that it is "microclustered" water, whatever that means.

From my point of view there seems to be 3 levels of BS behind this. (Understand I am not a chemist, but I do have a good grasp of physiology)

1. You cannot alkalize water. This is chemically impossible. Unless my college chemistry fails me H20 is a balanced molecule. An acid is a proton donor( H+) a base is a proton accepter(or a hydroxide ion OH-). Water is already balanced therefore no net affect on ph should occur.

2. Even if you were able to alkalize water, it would take an enourmous amount of slightly alkaline water (they claim a ph of 9) to dilute out the acidity of a healthly human stomach.

3. Even if I was wrong on 1 and 2 above, and you were able to alkalize water, and you were able to akalize your stomach thus alkalizing your body.........the result would be death.
The human body exists in a very small ph range(7.4) and a variance outside of this could lead to very serious consequences including death

I think you pretty well covered it. The only way to alter the ph of water is to add substances to it.

From the site and explanation I would say its just your run of mill health scam intended to sell their little gadget. The site says that electrolysis is the process of separating water into alkaline and acidic water which is gibberish.

I think this is just a gussied up water filter with maybe an ozone generator or UV lamp built in. Filtering the water and zapping it will alter the taste and convince people it new and improved H2O. It's most likely perfectly harmless. Most of these scams survive because they don't hurt anybody.

I'd just tell your patients that you've looked into it and don't find it scientifically sound but that if they want to use it in conjunction with the scientific medicine you prescribe that its okay for them to do so. After all, the placebo effect is a recognized effective medical technique. Might as well take advantage of it.

The Placebo effect is an amazing thing, and it has to be controlled of in every scientific study on humans.

But these machines sell for over $4000. Can't we come up with a cheaper placebo. (Maybe some sugar pills)

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Originally posted by joedaddy1:
But these machines sell for over $4000. Can't we come up with a cheaper placebo. (Maybe some sugar pills)

Where's the profit in that?

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But these machines sell for over $4000. Can't we come up with a cheaper placebo.

Probably not. People believe that placebos work because there is something special about the placebo. Throughout history a fairly standard group of concepts has been used to sell placebo based treatments. (1) It comes for an exotic culture. Today, the rage is for Chinese treatments. (2) It's repulsive. Drinking urine is one that reoccurs over and over again. (3) Secret Knowledge. The cure is based on esoteric or repressed knowledge. (4) It's expensive. In the past, this meant making cures from gold, rare spices or powdered jewels.

We seem to have a built in psychological mechanism that conflates rare with effective. Expense makes things seem rare or unusual. In this case, people will only believe the water filter gadgets have healing properties if they have to spend a lot of money on them. No one is going to believe in the healing properties of a gadget you can buy for $9.95 down at the Quicky Mart.

I just got home from a Kangen presentation. I'd love to see this on Mythbusters. It was definitely a persuasive presentation, but clearly had some pretty outrageous claims. Adam and Jamie... test please!!

I would definitly like to see this tested.

I attended a presentation because of a friend who was completly taken by this Kangen water thing. I was appalled by some of the claims made by the sales men.

There are multiple companies that "sell" (or pyramid scheme) these machines out.

Would love to see it on the show.

I'm sorry to hear that outrageous claims have made people skeptical about the value of Kangen water. The fact is that the water itself does not heal anything and is not a remedy. Drinking the water in sufficient amounts can help your body to reach a state of healthy pH balance (slightly alkaline)which allows the body to better function, more effectively tranporting and assimilating valuable nutrients, and clearing out toxic waste. This can allow the body to heal itself, as it is meant to do.

The specific malady which may be affected depends on the person trying the water. No one is forced to buy anything before trying Kangen water and seeing if they experience any relief from symptoms which signal dis-ease.

The Enagic units, which are the ONLY units which produce Kangen water are certified medical devices used extensively in hospitals all over Japan. Also, in Japan devices which make ionized water are present in one out of five households. Statistics show the population of Japan to be the healthiest people in the world, with the highest life expectancy on the planet. By comparison, the USA is ranked 38th.

If you would like further information or have any questions, I'll be checking this blog frequently.

Joedaddy1,

I am not a doctor, and not an expert either, but I think I understand some of the confusion you are having, and I hope I can shed some sensible light.

As I stated in my previous post, Kangen water does not cure anything. It is alkaline though, the drinkable levels being a pH between 8.5 and 9.5. The 9.5 level has the highest level of antioxidants as measured by Oxident Reduction Potential (ORP) meter. Antioxidant levels of 9.5 pH water are three to ten times the level found in green tea. This allows the water to aid in the greatest currently available reduction of free radicals in the body. I'm sure you understand the significance of that. Free radicals are the hydroxide ions (OH-) you mentioned, and occur because the molecular bond of water is weak.

I will tell you my understanding of microclustering if you would like, but for now I want to address your so-called 3 levels of BS. Understand, I am not a chemist either but what you state is only slightly off.

Indeed you cannot alkalize PURE water. That is true for the reason you state. But pure water does not exist in nature. The closest example of pure water is distilled water. Distilled water is sometimes referred to as dead water because it contains no trace elements or minerals. Even rain water has trace elements, and contaminants. It is these elements and contaminants present in natural water which make it naturally somewhat acidic, but able to have its pH altered by electrolysis. Kangen water tests by meter and with litmus paper at the alkaline levels claimed.

Your second level of BS is a good challenge because of some assumptions we make. You are correct. It would take an enormous amount of alkaline water to neutralize the strong acid of the stomach which is automatically balanced by the stomach at near pH 4.0. It is that automatic balancing that makes the Kangen water able to affect body pH. Keep in mind, this pH change is very slight, within the very small range of the body's automatic buffering system.

When the alkaline Kangen water enters the stomach in sufficient quantities to slightly raise stomach pH, the cells of the stomach wall automatically produce more acid to return the stomach contents to normal pH 4.0. In producing more acid for the stomach, those cells must also produce alkaline as a byproduct, and that newly produced alkaline is released into the bloodstream. The net effect is slight alkalinity. It's not that the water goes through the stomach and still manages to come out alkaline. The alkalinity of the ingested water is traded for the new alkalinity in the blood. Of course it doesn't stop there, because blood pH is also strictly regulated by the body's automatic buffering system.

The goal is to maintain a very slight alkaline pH of the body, within the small variations of the system, rather than keeping a slightly acidic pH. This is what supposedly leads the body to be able to have less inflammation due to acidity.

Correct me if I'm mistaken that this could be beneficial. This is my understanding of some of the alkaline theory of health benefit.

Quote from the website:

'In the United States we are not allowed to claim that Kangen water will actually do all of these things'

Says it all really. 'We aren't allowed to claim these things because there's no evidence to back up the claims and we would end up in court'.

Here's a good webpage that discusses things in more detail:

"Ionized" and alkaline water

Long story short: no, it's not true.

quote:

Originally posted by PeterSWFL:
The Enagic units, which are the ONLY units which produce Kangen water are certified medical devices used extensively in hospitals all over Japan. Also, in Japan devices which make ionized water are present in one out of five households. Statistics show the population of Japan to be the healthiest people in the world, with the highest life expectancy on the planet. By comparison, the USA is ranked 38th.

If all dibs are dubs, and all dubs are dobs, then it does not follow that all dobs are dibs. Some could be debs.

Or, to put it in something approximating the English language - holy leaping to conclusions, batman! There are many reasons why Japanese may have the highest life expectancy. Saying that it is as a result of the ionized water is completely unfounded, bearing in mind there is no evidence to demonstrate any health benefits of this (hence the reason you can't make the claims in the US. Hmmm.) I can think of many reasons why the Japanese may have a longer lifespan. None of them involve alkaline water.

We are not allowed to claim Kangen water is a cure or a remedy for anything because it has not been FDA approved, and it has not been approved because the FDA does not test water for approval.

That does not mean that drinking the water has no benefit.

Those who claim there are no clinical studies which show the medical benefit of drinking ionized/alkalized water are wrong.

Additionally, I never claimed that the people of Japan have the highest life expectancy as a result of the ionized water. That would be adsurd. It is not absurd to conclude that there might be some medical benefit if the units are used in hospitals in Japan and are certified as medical devices.

I can claim though, that the reason you have not experienced any benefit is because you have never tried the water.

If you are really interested in the truth, I can show you a document that debunks point by point the entire article to which you have posted a link.

Long story short: those who refuse to believe the world can possibly be anything but flat will never try to sail around it.

quote:

Originally posted by PeterSWFL:
Joedaddy1,

As I stated in my previous post, Kangen water does not cure anything. It is alkaline though, the drinkable levels being a pH between 8.5 and 9.5. The 9.5 level has the highest level of antioxidants as measured by Oxident Reduction Potential (ORP) meter. Antioxidant levels of 9.5 pH water are three to ten times the level found in green tea. This allows the water to aid in the greatest currently available reduction of free radicals in the body. I'm sure you understand the significance of that. Free radicals are the hydroxide ions (OH-) you mentioned, and occur because the molecular bond of water is weak.

The term free radicals encompasses far more molecules than OH-. It also contains O2-, singlet oxygen, NO, and various other radicals. Furthermore, the OH- is generated mostly by the electron transport chain. It has nothing to due with the bonds in H2O, which are very strong, by the way.

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It is these elements and contaminants present in natural water which make it naturally somewhat acidic, but able to have its pH altered by electrolysis. Kangen water tests by meter and with litmus paper at the alkaline levels claimed.

Nope, electrolysis won't alter the pH.

quote:

Your second level of BS is a good challenge because of some assumptions we make. You are correct. It would take an enormous amount of alkaline water to neutralize the strong acid of the stomach which is automatically balanced by the stomach at near pH 4.0. It is that automatic balancing that makes the Kangen water able to affect body pH. Keep in mind, this pH change is very slight, within the very small range of the body's automatic buffering system.

The body's buffering system is chemical, which means it responds to ANY change

quote:

When the alkaline Kangen water enters the stomach in sufficient quantities to slightly raise stomach pH, the cells of the stomach wall automatically produce more acid to return the stomach contents to normal pH 4.0. In producing more acid for the stomach, those cells must also produce alkaline as a byproduct, and that newly produced alkaline is released into the bloodstream. The net effect is slight alkalinity. It's not that the water goes through the stomach and still manages to come out alkaline. The alkalinity of the ingested water is traded for the new alkalinity in the blood. Of course it doesn't stop there, because blood pH is also strictly regulated by the body's automatic buffering system.

Complete BS. The body's buffers are chemical, not biological

quote:

The goal is to maintain a very slight alkaline pH of the body, within the small variations of the system, rather than keeping a slightly acidic pH. This is what supposedly leads the body to be able to have less inflammation due to acidity.

Correct me if I'm mistaken that this could be beneficial. This is my understanding of some of the alkaline theory of health benefit.

More BS. There is no way to raise the pH of water without changing it's composition. There is no health benefit either. Don't waste any money on the device. It's a scam.

Your rebuttal about the variety of free radicals does not make my statement wrong.

Electrolysis can and does alter the pH of tap water.

The body's buffering system being chemical does not make my statement wrong unless you are asserting that the stomach wall does not produce acid.

It is not BS and your entire final statement is your opinion with no basis in fact. No one has to buy an Enagic unit without trying the water free of cost and being satisfied that there is indeed a reason that convinces them that investment in a unit of their own is a good decision. If you don't care to put it to that test, just to see if you experience any benefit, that's ok, but you don't have to attack something that you don't believe in for no apparent reason other than to feed your ego.

quote:

Originally posted by PeterSWFL:
Those who claim there are no clinical studies which show the medical benefit of drinking ionized/alkalized water are wrong.

Ok, I'll play along. Please give us the reference to INDEPENDENT clinical studies, published in peer reviewed journals showing the medical benefits.

quote:

Additionally, I never claimed that the people of Japan have the highest life expectancy as a result of the ionized water. That would be adsurd. It is not absurd to conclude that there might be some medical benefit if the units are used in hospitals in Japan and are certified as medical devices.

You said that 'devices which make ionized water are present in one out of five households. Statistics show the population of Japan to be the healthiest people in the world', heavily inferring that the two facts are linked.

quote:

If you are really interested in the truth, I can show you a document that debunks point by point the entire article to which you have posted a link.

Please do. Unless it was the same link printed in my link, which I've already read. And can see through.

Furthermore, on a related note, you are making alot of claims regarding antioxidant levels and how this means that the water has many health benefits. Please give links to the research which shows these antioxidant levels giving specific health benefits. Because I am also aware that a meta-analysis of all clinical research published into the health benefits of antioxidant suppliments demonstrated that
'We found no evidence to support antioxidant supplements for primary or secondary prevention' and 'Randomised trials have largely been neutral'.

Cochrane review of antioxidant suppliments.

Sorry for another double post but as neither you or I are doctors, I thought I'd link to people who are:

Dr. Gabe Mirkin

Orac

There are few things more contemptible than cheap hucksters selling snake oil to sick people.

Anyone promoting this crap is either:

A) Taken in by magical thinking, desperation, or simple lack of critical thinking.

B) A huckster that should be prosecuted.

Dancing around and saying that "try it and see" is the same kind of nonsense that Uri Geller and his ilk gets away with. It's beneath contempt to prey on the sick just to steal their money and fund future crimes. The fact some criminals figured out a way to con people into MLM crud doesn't surprise me; they're thieves and that's what thieves do.

$4000 for water? Buy a good water filter if you're truly paranoid, and use the rest for tuition to learn the truth.

Now, unless I see some real evidence, I'd listen to GaryWilmot's links if I were you.

By the way, the lies started with the Japanese being the longest lived people on Earth--in truth, the Macau and Andorarans beat them out.

By your standards, that means that office management, tourism, and banking are the keys to long life.

quote:

Originally posted by PeterSWFL:
Your rebuttal about the variety of free radicals does not make my statement wrong.

Electrolysis can and does alter the pH of tap water.

The body's buffering system being chemical does not make my statement wrong unless you are asserting that the stomach wall does not produce acid.

It is not BS and your entire final statement is your opinion with no basis in fact. No one has to buy an Enagic unit without trying the water free of cost and being satisfied that there is indeed a reason that convinces them that investment in a unit of their own is a good decision. If you don't care to put it to that test, just to see if you experience any benefit, that's ok, but you don't have to attack something that you don't believe in for no apparent reason other than to feed your ego.

First off, My "rebuttal" about the nature of radicals was not to disprove you, it was simply to correct you for future reference.

Ok, let's see some evidence for your claim. What chemicals does electrolysis produce that then alter the pH of water?

And, my statement about the body's buffering system does reject your claim. A Chemical system would act immediately upon any change and negate it. There would be no alkalinization of the blood.

Also, there is a well known medical condition caused by an increase in th pH of the blood called Alkalosis

Plus, When did ego come into the discussion? It seems to me you're the one showing an ego. But, that's just my uneducated opinion. I suppose we mus wait for a psychiatrist to come and declare it valid or in-.

Electrolysis does not produce any chemicals. It alters the pH of the water by separating the water. Negatively charged ions gather at the positive electrodes creating anodic or oxidized water. Positively charged ions gather at the negative electrodes creating cathodic or reduced water.

The separated water is expelled from the ionizer through two separate hoses for collection.

The blood is alkalized when gastric acid is produced:

Wikipedia, GASTRIC ACID, Physiology

Gastric acid is produced by parietal cells (also called oxyntic cells) in the stomach. Its secretion is a complex and relatively energetically expensive process. Parietal cells contain an extensive secretory network (called canaliculi) from which the gastric acid is secreted into the lumen of the stomach. These cells are part of epithelial fundic glands in the gastric mucosa. The pH of gastric acid is 2 to 3 in the human stomach lumen, the acidity being maintained by the proton pump H+/K+ ATPase. The parietal cell releases bicarbonate into the blood stream in the process, which causes a temporary rise in the pH of the blood, known as alkaline tide.

Your statement about alkalosis and its linked definition both support MY statement about alkalization of the blood.

But my purpose here is not to prove you right or wrong but rather to address the readers who come here to do their due diligence researching the subject of Kangen water, and who look to this site in hope of gathering reliable information on this widely debated subject.

Those who have health concerns and who are looking for something that can help them find relief for their malady, are my concern. Many of these people have sought help in vain from traditional medicine.

To you I say... I can't sell you anything. You don't even know who I am. Whatever your medical complaint, I can't know what will result from your drinking Kangen water from an Enagic ionizer, but you can try it for yourself, free of charge. Find an Enagic distributor in your area and ask to try the water.

Thousands of people are convinced that their relief from cancer, constipation, diabetes, fibromyalgia, acid reflux, chronic fatigue, chrons disease, and a myriad of other maladies is solely due to their drinking Kangen water.

Maybe you will find relief. Maybe you won't. But don't let the naysayers and those who cry "SCAM" prevent you from trying Kangen water from an Enagic ionizer for yourself. If you find that ionized water is something you wish to continue to drink, do yourself a favor and check truthfulionizerreview.com before you decide which ionizer is best for you.

I drink Kangen water from an Enagic SD501 and I feel better than I have felt for 18 years, since before my three heart attacks, stroke, diabetes, and major clinical depression.

Summary of Kangen:

Kangen is MLM so you will see many people who try to convince others to join the 'pyramid' and most of those people actually believe in the machine. There are countless websites of Kangen entrepreneurs who try to promote Kangen water.

However, the bottom line is that water is water. It has a set chemical makeup. Yes, some water dissociates into H+ and OH- naturally but there is no way you can increase either the H+ (H3O+) or OH- without adding impurities. THE ONLY WAY WATER CAN BE MORE ALKALINE OR ACIDIC IS IF THERE ARE IMPURITIES IN THE WATER. Without that, water is water and behaves like water. The plain old polar H2O you know and love.

We eat foods that are more acidic (like oranges) or more alkaline alkaline (like cheese) all the time. If there are impurities which make you healthier, you can get that in much higher quantities in solid food. The stomache breaks down those foods (in a highly acidic environment, by the way) and uses it from there. Anyone who tries to tell you mildly alkaline water will make you healthier is a person in a long chain of people, customers or investors, who were duped by they swindlers pushing this type of water.

On a similar note, in a certain widely read publication I once saw an ad for a popular machine which falsely claimed to change the angle of the H-O-H bond in water to make people healthier. These scams are prevalent and have been around for a long time. Pay attention in school and become an educated, mildly skeptical consumer and you will save a lot of money.