Just gonna state again, I'm not here to argue whether folks have a personal attitude regarding pipes on bikes. I'm here to argue wether or not loud pipes saving lives is a myth.

Scott9282, regarding not reading posts I'm sorry, I might be missing a point somewhere, I thought I'd addressed the issues raised. Engine outputs arent a constant noise unless at cruise and unless vehicles are fitted with loud pipes or being driven recklessly, being able to audibly detect the behaviour of other traffic will already be comprimised by wind noise in the average riders helmet. I will admit I do tend to start skipping other posts when its becoming apparent a post is a complaint not an argument, nature of the internet and all that, if I'm missing valid points please feel free to remind me that I'm not answering them. However your one of the few posters who seems interested in actually debating the issue so if I may use your personal experience to make a point.

When pulling someone over you would perform two main functions. Turn on your lights, and activate your siren. Once the individual has pulled over you'd deactivate your siren and leave your lights flashing. The reason you'd activate your siren would be to attract the attention of the motorist towards your vehicle, like I was saying above, loud noises are better for attracting attention than lights as they aren't dependant on falling into the field of view, plus thresholds etc as written above. From your experience would say that flashing your lights is as effective at getting someone attention as activating your siren?

As you said in your closing sentence, situation awareness and responsibility are your best defences. Loud noises such as sirens and pipes attract peoples attention for better or worse.

Now you made the point that a loud exhaust note would not be easily differentiated from background noise in the same way a siren is. And thats a completely valid point. I dont agree, but I have no proof to support either side of that point. Closest I can offer is from this forum, people here are expressing personal dislike of motorcycle noise, which indicates they are differentiating the sound of a bike from the surrounding traffic frequently enough to form personal opinions on the matter. Personally though, I agree that a siren would be more easily detected, but I believe a motorcycle exhaust, whilst not as easily, can still be detected.

Rikkochet, your hunting prowess and alternatives to growing old? Cmon do you seriously want to be "that" guy in the forums. Dont make threats, debate the issue.

Jeffbro, your making an assumption I personally ride a loud motorbike. I'm just arguing that I believe humans react to audible cues, therefore having a loud noise eminating from a machine would make people around it aware of it. Following on from that point, I believe that by making people aware of its presence, it is making for a safer situation.

Regarding your point on the effects of echoing. Interesting and valid. Have no logical debate against it, an echoing noise does definately make it harder to locate the source of the noise. Echoing would be detrimental to making drivers situationally aware of the exact location of a rider, but I would argue it does in fact make drivers situationally aware to the presence of a rider. There would need to be a study on the effects of echoing on the ability to locate the source of a noise, I have no proof either way, but I'd put forward that I believe its possible but more difficult. Either way, if only making people aware of the presence rather than the location, I'd say there's valid cause for argument that any form of increased awareness makes for a safer situation.

Audio cue being diminished in the absence of echos... I put forward that its entirely dependant on the level of noise, speed of vehicles, and sound insulation of your vehicle. In some situations you'd be right, and in some situations you'd be wrong. But even if its only 1% of the time that a bike would be heard, the arguement that loud pipes save lives is valid.

Ok that was a lot of typing to a lot of different people, so I'm gonna put in a closing remark. In for a penny in for a pound. If the situation arises that a collision is imminent unless you can warn me to get out of your way, please dont frantically flash your lights instead of sounding your horn. You might not believe that a loud noise is effective in attracting attention, however please consider that there is a train of thought that counters this. Horns are not fitted to vehicles for the amusement of the driver, they are considered a safety device. They function by producing a loud noise in order to attract the attention of people nearby.

quote:

[QUOTE]Armstrod
Junior Member

Registered: 10-31-09 Posted 11-01-09 10:49 PM
Horns are not fitted to vehicles for the amusement of the driver, they are considered a safety device. They function by producing a loud noise in order to attract the attention of people nearby.

How long would you have respect for somebody driving near You who just would not stop blowing their horn? How long would it be before You had the thought of running that person off the road? Safety devices are meant to be used as needed, when a situation is encountered, not continuously. A bike has a horn, if it is needed to let somebody know the bike is there, a horn can be used.

quote:

a loud exhaust note would not be easily differentiated from background noise in the same way a siren is. And thats a completely valid point. I dont agree...

A noise not easily differentiated is a noise ignored. Even if a driver hears the noise and knows there is a motorcycle in the area, that driver most certainly will not be any more cautious when changing lanes or turning. They will drive pretty much the same, if they see the bike, they will act accordingly. If they do not see it, they will act accordingly.

quote:

pulling someone over you would perform two main functions. Turn on your lights, and activate your siren. Once the individual has pulled over you'd deactivate your siren and leave your lights flashing

I've been pulled over plenty of times in the past and never, not once did the officer use the siren. Not one single time was it neccesary, the flashing lights were always enough to let Me know He/She was there, night and day. Yep, even during the day, the lights have been immediatly noticable. You did not reply as to Your thoughts about Me setting up 600 watts of stereo outside Your window and cranking up "loud bike" decibles while You try to sleep. How does that set with You?

Why is it always "car drivers need to pay attention to motorcycles"? How about the motorcyclists pay attention and obey the traffic laws? I lost count of the number of times I have seen a "look at me, imma biker" guy weave in and out of traffic, blow throw red lights, and speed do the center lane.
Everytime I see that a motorcyclist crashed while doing 100+ miles per hour, i smile, thinking the streets are that much safer and quieter.

Very rapidly losing enthusiasm for this topic, not so much for the subject matter but the nature of the debate. But I'll have another crack.

JeffBro, Respect is irrelevant, unless your arguing that society has deteriorated to the point where people actively try to kill each other for making noise. I dont think that's the point your going for, but it case it is, the fact still remains, that unless every member of society is trying to kill those who make noise, anyone who isn't if actively trying to kill noisemakers could potentially avoid injuring someone accidentally when provided an audio cue.

Now the point I think you were actually going for, if someone pulled up along side me constantly blowing their horn I'm pretty sure I'd be aware of their presence. Being made aware of their presence I'd probably be less likely to run them over... unless I'm in a particularly odd state of mind.

You've ignored the point that motorcycle noises are easily differentiated whilst presenting your next arguement, the fact you've heard them often enough to form a negative opinion of them is proof you differentiate them from surrounding traffic. Regarding driving the same despite hearing a loud motorbike nearby, you have a valid point, a persons actions may be in complete contrast to common sense. But common sense does prevail in most individuals, hence the term common sense. When provided an audio cue that another machine is approaching them, they are given an extra cue to perform a visual check, giving an extra opportunity for them to realise someone may have approached their vehicle undetected.

It appears you are extremely aware of your surroundings while driving, which is an excellent quality to have. Personally my field of view can only cover 120 of the 360 degrees that could potentially cause danger, so I do have some room for extra sensory cues to advise me of whats going on in the other 240 degrees I cant visually monitor. However you've identified this is not the case for your situation, so lets adress your particular situation and how its tanslates to society at large. In order for it to present a valid point in the arguement that loud pipes save lives your going to need to now take the stance that every individual on the roads maintains that same level of awareness and does not suffer from distractions such as mobile phones, screaming kids etc. or in any way at any point whilst driving, reduce themselves to a state less than absolute awareness of their surroundings whilst not using any audio cues. Following on from that, for your point to be valid your going to need to take the stance that sirens on emergency vehicles are redundant in every case, as they have no effective use in your particular situation. Otherwise the fact is that whilst you cannot be distracted, maintain a perfect 360 degree view of what's going on around you at all time and do not require audio cues to detect what is happening, the remainder of the population do not live up to that standard. Audio cues may not be necessary in your particular situation, however that does not make them unnecessary.

I haven't responded to you comment regarding installing a sound system in my bedroom as its irrelevant to the debate on loud pipes saving lives. If you'd like to create a thread along the lines of loud noises can be annoying, you can debate the topic there, but to this topic is an opinion, not a relevant argument. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't post it, its a free forum, go nuts, I'm just saying I personally dont consider it relevant. But you've taken the time to personally address a statement towards me though so I'll be polite and respond, my thoughts would probably vary, depending on your taste in music

OK rammingspeed is making a disturbing observation about the joy he takes at the deaths of strangers but not presenting an argument regarding why loud pipes aren't effective so I'm going to wrap up.

I'm no longer presenting new arguments, so unless there is a valid arguement to discuss I'm not going to post. A lot of folks on here like to take things personally, which they're more than entitled to do, however I'm not particularly interested in opinions or insults, rather I prefer debate. If you wish to present your opinions regarding loud pipes, go nuts its a free forum, or I'll even go as far to suggest that if people would like to make their opinions count regarding their annoyance over loud pipes, approach the next biker you encounter with loud pipes fitted to his machine, and attempt to engage in a debate with him or her, over their choice. That way you can have a real world effect in your own community, whilst also leaving debates regarding the safety aspects of loud exhausts free of repetitive and off-topic posts regarding the aesthetics of loud pipes. Whilst an argument could be made that writing online posts regarding your displeasure at loud pipes provides a means of venting anger in a safe anonymous environment, it is a self defeating argument as it does not address the core issue in the real world environ of the writer, and instead leads the author to increase their stress levels regarding an issue whilst not taking any action to resolve it.

When pulling someone over, the lights are used first, and if that doesn't work (and it often doesn't, in both radio cars and motorcycles) then the siren is used. But it is used sparingly. Blasting the siren on constant sounds cool in movies and on television, but it has the same effect as loud pipes, that is it masks other sounds.

Oddly enough, one of the things we found was that people would often not pay attention to the siren, but when we would also use the horn (on the motorcycles this was often an electric "airhorn" sound) that would get the attention of drivers.

I'm not sure why, but I do know that constant noise tends to get shut out, but short intermittent loud sounds get heeded.

There's probably a doctoral thesis in that somewhere.

quote:

Armstrod
Junior Member

Registered: 10-31-09

I'll give You this, A loud bike might somewhere, sometime, save a rider from getting run over. It would be foolish to argue that this is not possible. However, Loud Pipes on any vehical, I believe are more likely to have an adverse effect than a possitive effect. First and formost, Nobody will convince Me that a biker riding one of these loud bikes, driver in a loud car, can hear anything but the bike/car while it is running. Things like sirens, other drivers using a horn, cars around them, a train... You get the idea. Secondly, In the process of disrupting, disturbing, annoying those around the bike, the frustration building up in these other drivers/riders (I think, based on many comments here, it is clear that this is a real occurence) could cause them to do something out of character for them, just to get away from the noise, like abruptly changing lanes to pass cars, in attempt to distance themselves from the noise, causing an accident in the process. The same goes for loud stereos in cars. I enjoy loud music, I build speaker systems as a hobby and am poking around with the possability of manufacturing them for resale. But in My van I have the stock stereo and listen to it at volumes that allow Me to hear what is around Me. Because blasting stereos do not belong in cars that are driving down the road. It is not safe. My point about blasing music outside your windows while you try to sleep just shows another negative aspect of a loud bike. It wakes people up who need to be sleeping. This is a problem day and night as long as there are 3 shifts of people working. And then there is that respect thing. Loud pipes ARE disrespectful to a lot of people. Being disrespectful to those on the road around You is not a safety feature.

quote:

Originally posted by Armstrod:
Nah sorry, just not buying that. I'll conceed constant noise for a four cylinder inline bike traveling at a constant speed, but a twin or triple inline, or anything with a V gives a pulsating tone at cruise, and engines give distinctly different audio cues when under acceleration/deceleration. The only time a loud engine could be considered a constant noise is when a four cylinder inline machine is maintaining a constant cruising speed at a constant distance from the listener. And in that circumstance the rider will be encountering wind noise, which brings to the next statement, that its more important for a rider to be able to hear the sound of vehicles around them manuevering.

Challenging that statement I'm going to consider the other vehicles will be fitted with factory "Silent/low noise" Exhausts, the argument after all is that loud pipes dont save lives. The noise that would eminate from machines with quiet exhausts will primarily come from wind and tyre noise. I'm gonna reckon, that if vehicles are traveling at a speed high enough to give a noticeable wind noise, at that same speed, an average biker would be encountering wind noise around their helmet, that would drown out the noise from other vehicles, I dont believe the noise eminating from their own machine would have any greater effect at drowing out surrounding noise than the wind noise they're already encountering

For me to buy that a loud vehicle is not providing an enhanced means to assess its position relative to the listener, I'd need to be convinced that either the sound insulation in modern cars is capable of drowning out an exhaust note... which it isnt. Or that people have become so inocculated to audio cues in their daily lives, that they could as easily locate a mobile phone that is set to silent and has a flashing screen, to one that has an audible ring tone.

They cant, because humans visual input is constantly saturated, we need something with sufficient intensity to stand apart from the surrounding scenery for us to notice it, a flashing police light or motorcyclist would fill perhaps 2 to 10% of our total field of vision... it needs to be bright and distinct to be noticed above the background, and it also requires the visual cue to fall within our field of view. Our audio input on the other hand is also constantly saturated, but with a much lower threshold and over a smaller spectrum, and will be registered regardless of appearing within field of view. A loud audio cue will much more easily be recognised. Thats why a phone on silent with flashing lights is considered a discreet means of attracting attention, whilst one with an audio cue is much more obvious. Loud noises allow human beings to identify and locate things.

Cmon Myth busters, there's enough weighting on both sides of this argument to keep it going indefinately, we needs proven evidence!

my service truck has blind spots you could hide a mobile home in - and there has only been one time in 2 years that I have heard a motorcycle before I saw it. - and that was because the idiot was camped out in my blind spot.

the"bug grinder" sirens, and air horns on our firetrucks are specifically positioned to deliver an ear-shattering blast directly at traffic ahead of us. motorcycle pipes tend to direct the sound towards the rear of the bike.

in code three response, we are trained to modulate our electronic sirens and use horn blasts at intersections - AND to slow (and stop at red lights) to check for people who STILL don't see our big red trucks.

loud pipes just make noise, and it is the biker's responsibility to watch out for idiots on the road, unless he wants to learn a whole new meaning for the term "dead right"

Never, in the History of Satire, has a program like tonight's South Park so clearly and completely defined an issue and destroyed those taking the unpopular side. There is nothing further that really needs to be added.

Well shoot. Now I've got to wait nearly 2 1/2 hours to find out what you're talking about!

Frikkin time zones.....

OK, Butters is EXACTLY how I picture the "loud pipes save lives" crowd as kids. And adults.

And by that, you mean Bike Curious, don't you?

i think the assumption here is that by being on a boke in traffic you know the dangers of what your doing and will be more attentive to your surroundings even if the drivers around your are not. the problem is, that the person on the bike cant be expected to account for your poor driving when they have to be paying attention to the other cars around him as well. the pipes themselves do help to announce the riders presence, but whether people use that as a cue to drive more cautiously or not is up to them. alot of people though tend to not pay attention to the other regualr cars as it it though, and thus, this cant really be tested because it would be on a person to person basis

The experience I have with loud pipes on the highway is that you just don't hear them until the bike is right past the driver's door. The wind blast at speed somehow muffles the sound and stops it from propagating forwards.

I always get a jump when there's a motorcycle speeding past. Especially those big block types that go BROTOTOTOTOTO. One second you hear nothing, then you got this thumping wall of sound rattling your teeth out as the biker tries to clip off your side mirror.

i am mot going to read all of these responses but my opinion is that loud pipes do save live because the motorcycle can be heard when it is in your blind spot, so they do save lives!!

jeffbro this one is for you... have you ever rode on a bike? i have and one thing that annoys me most is drivers like you that don't pay attention and kill people, i understand that the pipes seem loud but they have saved my life a couple of times because people noticed me. and another thing, its their vehicle and they can do whatever they want to it!!

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i have and one thing that annoys me most is drivers like you that don't pay attention and kill people,

That reminds me of a commercial from a few years ago. It was for motorcycle insurance (don't recall which company). The voice-over made this major point of how most accidents are the fault of the car driver, not the bike rider; playing up riders as a bunch of poor innocents at the mercy of demon drivers. At the same time, it had some video running of a guy riding down a twisty road - constantly crossing the double-yellow divider on the left hand curves and hitting the gravel on the far side of the shoulder while going to the right. All I could think when watching it is "wow, is THIS the mindset of motorcycle riders? 'I can ride however I want, breaking laws left-and-right, but if I get hit it isn't my fault'?" From what I've seen, it is for many riders. I think that the vast majority (not all, by any means) of car/bike accidents happen because the motorcyclist is riding way too agressively for the conditions. Then when he gets hit, it's played off as the drivers fault for not paying attention.

Just yesterday I saw a rider nearly get wiped out on the freeway by 3 different cars. Why? Lane-splitting at 70+ mph. I find it very hard to dredge up much sympathy when such a rider gets killed.

Keep in mind that I think the VAST majority of riders ride safely, obeying traffic laws and doing what they can to be seen. It's those reckless few who stand out.

And while I think that there may be those rare cases where a rider is seen because of his loud pipes, I think that as a general rule they do not increase visibility, nor do I believe that riders install them as a means of self-preservation. They put them on simply to draw attention and be noticed.

If people manage to pull into the paths of emergency vehicles, at night, with loud sirens and lots of flashing lights, clearly, a loud exhaust coming out the back of a bike as it approaches a clueless driver will be of no help.

I can also bust a myth I saw repeated here in more than a few responses. Bikes (or cars, or trucks) with loud pipes do not necessarily indicate a "Look at me" attitude. A less restrictive exhaust is a performance enhancement. Although not an option on bikes, due to space constraints, many hot rodders, street rodders or other gearheads run two exhaust systems on their cars - one with mufflers, one with less restrictive mufflers, glass packs, or just straight pipes. Oddly enough, straight pipes on a street bike (those with no baffles) decrease performance. Someone running straight pipes on a street bike likely does have a "look at me" attitude, or, just likes loud bikes.

quote:

Originally posted by mpweasel:
i am mot going to read all of these responses but my opinion is that loud pipes do save live because the motorcycle can be heard when it is in your blind spot, so they do save lives!!

A skilled rider wouldn't be riding in someone's blind spot. Speed up or slow down a little bit to get to where you can be seen.

One other interesting fact...

Almost half of all motorcycle accidents are single vehicle accidents (only the motorcycle).

Motorcyclists can complain all they want about inattentive cagers, but, almost half the time, we are our own worst enemy.