OOOOPs sorry, my post didnt show up 1st time so redid it. My second of the two is much more succinct and has added content

It's really not that hard to find the landing sites with the lasers because we know exactly where they are. There are several places on the web that have the exact coordinates and maps of the landing sites. It also isn't that hard to track the site on the Moon once you've found it. Almost any modern telescope drive has a Lunar tracking rate built into it.

quote:

Originally posted by dfez:
It's really not that hard to find the landing sites with the lasers because we know exactly where they are. There are several places on the web that have the exact coordinates and maps of the landing sites. It also isn't that hard to track the site on the Moon once you've found it. Almost any modern telescope drive has a Lunar tracking rate built into it.

Hi, thanks for the info on the tracking function of the scopes and lasers. As I'm a firm believer in the landings, Im not interested in finding the sites, thats easy enough for me.
I was interested in what you in particular had to say about my laser mapping & radar idea's in my post last page. NP if Ive hurt your feelings M8. Maybe someone else would like to shoot them down ;o)

Radar is used often to study inaccessible objects like Mercury, Venus, or asteroids. Radar waves can be focused into a beam by parabolic antennas or used with synthetic aperture as is often done with spacecraft. The trouble with doing radar mapping is that it ties up the one of the few large steerable dish antennas to do it and there is a time backlog for them doing downlink and tracking of Deep Space missions. Lasers are used a lot for ranging and altimetry, but the Moon's surface isn't very reflective-think old asphalt parking lot- so doing accurate mapping requires high power , fine resolution , and a lot of time. The fleet of satellites now orbiting the Moon and on the way there will go over the surface in great detail in almost all wavelengths so the landers are almost sure to show up somehow. I'm betting on the LRO.

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I still think, the radar and laser threads have not yet been entirely exhausted.
Radar is usually sprayed about in a broad and moving beam. Can it not be concentrated into a beam, as with lasers? Maybe with a much longer wavelength than is used here on earth.
Because it would be directional, and not cook humans nearby, very high power could be used.
Then a few sensitive radio telescopes could be used to triangulate the signal. Or spectrally analyse the signal to sense unnaturally high concentrations of manmade metals. Radar software would be pretty fancy nowadays and as here on earth disseminate between ground signals and other interferance. Digital picture enhancement could help to get maybe even a blurry image.
Well?

Of course. The US could spend money trying to convince a few nuts...what everyone already believes...yeah..

A truly horrendous milestone has just occurred in the exploration of Space. The very first Space Lawyer has been certified. The Horror! The HORROR!

First Space Lawyer

I knew the Space Age couldn't last.

quote:

Originally posted by dfez:
A truly horrendous milestone has just occurred in the exploration of Space. The very first Space Lawyer has been certified. The Horror! The HORROR!
First Space Lawyer

I knew the Space Age couldn't last.

Actually, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me, because highly desirable orbits are becoming pretty cluttered now, so there has to be a process for deciding how the real estate is to be divided up. That means, of course, lawyers.

There are already traffic agreements and orbital slot conventions in place. What I fear is that this will lead to massive lawsuits, choosing profits over the common good, environmental impact arguments, liability suits, higher launch insurance premiums, and the usual pestilence that comes with lawyers. It's just like the Old West; a lawyer would come to town and not be able to make money until another lawyer came along and then they both became wealthy.

dfez, quote;
Radar is used often to study inaccessible objects like Mercury, Venus, or asteroids. Radar waves can be focused into a beam by parabolic antennas or used with synthetic aperture as is often done with spacecraft. The trouble with doing radar mapping is that it ties up the one of the few large steerable dish antennas to do it and there is a time backlog for them doing downlink and tracking of Deep Space missions. Lasers are used a lot for ranging and altimetry, but the Moon's surface isn't very reflective-think old asphalt parking lot- so doing accurate mapping requires high power , fine resolution , and a lot of time. The fleet of satellites now orbiting the Moon and on the way there will go over the surface in great detail in almost all wavelengths so the landers are almost sure to show up somehow. I'm betting on the LRO

Thanks for carrying my thread dfez, Im almost exhausted ;o) hehe almost.
A shame expense rules out the radar option, as you say it might pay to wait for data from orbiters present now. Not sure if the CT's will accept either anyway, and why I think the Mythbusters may be the ones to crack their egg.

With laser though I was thinking on different lines. Them, processing power, tracking all being relatively very cheap too. Basically not requiring a reflected signal from the laser light. My suggestion is to very accurately measure the power input to the laser itself. This may or may not be how some of the altimetry and ranging equipment you mention could already work. My thinking being the longer the beam the more or maybe less power requirement to maintain it. This I think would require micro amp or smaller measurements, and that unfortunately doesnt sound cheap.

Here is some video that tries to say the moon landing didn't happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQTNLaUE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnNwoU6Th-o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl31LC-FbCE&feature=related

I think it would be easy to solve this myth just by looking at the landing site with a powerful telescope, or attemting to bounce a laser off the mirror the astronauts left on the moon to guage it's didtance form the earth.

I think the moon landing was real.

As has been posted Many, Many times, there is no telescope on Earth or in orbit, that can see the Lunar Landers on the Moon; they are too small and too far away. The laser ranging experiment is done quite routinely at several sites around the world. It's believed that the MBs have done it already for their Moon Landing show to air later this summer.

If MB's has already bounced a laser off of the moon's laser rnage system then that should be sufficient to solve this myth.

Apparently others higher up in NASA have recognized the fundamental flaws in the Aries design I have been carping about all this time. There is a back door project underway among the NASA design engineers to build a better system for Moon Return Missions. I thought Aries had the stench of failure about it; now it seems others do-I hope they can prevail.

http://www.directlauncher.com/

I am positive that NASA will prevail. The idea that they did not go to the moon the first time is nuts.

space, this is not a question where the current management of NASA should prevail. The design they have put forward for the Constellation Program is seriously flawed and there is a significant effort under way for a design review. The point of the website I posted is that NASA engineers themselves are working on a better design on their own time behind the scenes to solve several of the major flaws when the political climate changes.