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Member
Registered: 02-28-08
Posts: 9
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quote: Originally posted by thevictim: The Victim's Free Energy FAQ/Guide
When you see a posting about a 'Free Energy' device, more often than not you'll see one of the following:
1) A device that takes part of its output and feeds it back into its own input, and claims to produce more energy than it consumes. 2) A device that appears to produce enough energy from air or water to run a vehicle, large generator, etc. 3) Machines that claim to rotate/reciprocate forever after initial momentum is applied, supplying enough additional momentum to produce 'Free Energy'. This phenomena is also known as Perpetual Motion.
I am going to ATTEMPT to show you why most of these are absolute bunk, and how to spot any new ones that pop up. You'll also be far more likely to spot a TRUE source of alternative energy that may come from legitimate but untapped sources.
ENERGY AND WORK.
What you are seeking with Free Energy is really Free Work. Energy (especially heat) is everywhere in unlimited quanitity, and like the first law of thermodynamics states, it cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. WORK can be extracted by the reduction of energy GRADIENTS (differences in energy or potential energy levels). When energy such as heat, pressure, electrical charge, masses in a gravitation field, etc. move from a region of higher energy or potential energy, work can be produced. Unlike energy, WORK, once extracted by reduction of an energy gradient CANNOT be reversed by a process within the same energy system. If you look at it this way, what we are seeking as "energy" CANNOT be created and MUST be destroyed. The whole universe including life itself is reducing energy gradients and will continue to do so until the entire universe reaches thermal equilibrium and DIES. When this happens there will still be the same amount of energy that the universe started with, but NO MORE WORK CAN BE DONE. Welcome to the cold hard reality of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
QUALITY OF ENERGY
There is a related concept that needs clarifying, known as Quality of Energy. "Quality" energy creates gradients that are either very steep or very easy to extract work from. When we reduce an energy gradient to produce work, what we are doing is breaking up the original gradient into work (our % of efficiency) and other smaller gradients (inefficiency or energy loss, usually in the form of heat). Burning gasoline (an incredibly high quality source of chemical energy) in our cars produces mechanical work, and lots of heat energy. Heat energy is a random movement of atoms and molecules within matter. The hotter something is, the faster the particles move around. On a large scale (above a few micrograms) heat moves from a region of higher temperature to a region of lower temperature. As it moves it further reduces any gradients to even lower levels.
On a microscopic level, a fluid or a gas that appears to have reached thermal equilibrium may in fact have millions or even billions of very minute temperature gradients. Many have tried to come up with a way to extract useful work from this phenomena, but so far nobody has. It has the lowest Quality of Energy of all. Using this energy would be like trying to get sufficient nutrituion from eating excrement and dirt. If someone comes up with a "Free Energy" device that exploits these microgradients, there will NOT be enough energy to operatre a vehicle or power a large generator.
HEAT REALLY ISN'T WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO CALL ENERGY.
Why can't we just make a device that harnesses the random motion of thermal energy, thus reducing the temperature and creating a useful thermal gradient, getting work at the same time? This has also been theorized and experimented on for centuries. The problem is anything tiny enough to attempt to harness work from this random motion is subject to and a contributor to the random thermal noise as well. Brownian Ratches and motors come into the system with only their own potential energy, and won't produce any more work than the gradient of potential energy they came in with. Thermal Radiation can't be utilized because it is being randomly emitted in every direction and frequency, cancelling each other out. The only thing Thermal Radiation can do is increase the Thermal Noise in another mass of lower temperature, which is another way heat can be transferred to a cooler body besides convection and conduction.
ENGINES THAT RUN ON WATER OR AIR.
About chemical fuels and "burning water". We can use chemicals such as gasoline and alcohol to produce very useful temperature and pressure gradients. What is happening here is the chemical bonds are not very strong, and get excited enough to come apart with sufficient impetus from heat energy. This is realeasing more heat energy when combining with oxygen, thus perpetuating the process until the chemical fuel or supply of oxygen is exhausted. Chemical energy is potential energy. Some bonds release heat when made/broken, some absorb heat. Both can be used to create temperature or pressure gradients and produce work.
Water has a VERY strong bond. If fact, it has a STABLE bond. A stable bond doesn't release or absorb any energy when it is broken, it just breaks. In the case of water, it takes a LOT of energy to break the bond. The amount of energy released CANNOT exceed any energy used to break the bond in the first place
OPEN VS. CLOSED ENERGY SYSTEM.
Another thing that needs to be addressed is Closed and Open systems. A closed system contains only its own initial gradients. Once these are reduced to produce work, no more work can be produced and it grinds to a halt. Alternators that power their own motors, magnet/flywheel/shifting weight combinations, closed air/water/electricity circulators, etc. are ALL closed systems and CANNOT perform any work after their initial gradients are reduced.
Open systems are a completely different story. Here is where something that may appear to be free energy is possible, or as often is the case, someone is claiming to have made a Free Energy device which in reality is being operatred by a hidden or non-apparent energy source. Open systems have an energy system producing work, but functions by creating gradients with the environment around them. The work that can be produced by an open system is in fact UNLIMITED as long as the outside environment continues to provide its contribution. Solar power, wind power, thermal updraft towers, etc. all create work by reducing a gradient between their own system and the outside world. The Earth itself is part of a thermodynamic gradient between itself and our Sun. Claims of Free Energy that are an Open system do warrant closer inspection. It is possible to generate a small amount of electrical or mechanical power using nothing more than evaporation and atmospheric heat and currents, but the power produced isn't very much and would be impractical for many real world applications. Adam's propane tank generator that was attempted on the show was one such device. YES, it worked, but wasn't really useful.
When confronted with a Free Energy claim, you need to ask yourself these questions:
1) Is it an Open or a Closed system? Closed systems are doomed right from the start. If a device appears to actually operate and produce work, it is an Open system even though it may appear closed. A scam artist could be using light, heat, RF, electrostatic charge, or any number of energy sources to create a gradient within their "closed" system that does not appear to be there.
2) Does it appear to recycle something? This smacks of a Closed system, and if it functions then it is an Open system and you need to find the outside element of the gradient.
3) Does it produce a useful amount of work? I can sprinkle a fine powder on water and you can see the particles move around from brownian motion under a microscope for the rest of eternity. Yes, it is perpetual motion, but it is USELESS.
lets make a quote pyramid!
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-25-08
Posts: 86
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lorgin's guide to free energy: step 1: find dirt on one of the higher up at the electric company. step 2: proceed to blackmail.
and i didn't even have to use science or nuthin'.
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Senior Member
Registered: 10-28-06
Posts: 722
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quote: lorgin's guide to free energy: step 1: find dirt on one of the higher up at the electric company. step 2: proceed to blackmail.
and i didn't even have to use science or nuthin'.
Even that ceases being free when the courts become involved.
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Member
Registered: 03-17-08
Posts: 7
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ok, now that the furor has died down regarding Profrog's "Device", I'd like to try and clearly nail down the actual mechanism he is promoting.
In essence what I'm seeing described would be analogous to a waterwheel where rather than dumping the water at the bottom of the wheel's rotation, the "return" side of the wheel would be shielded from Gravity's effects.
Since the returning "buckets" are already full when they return, no additional water is needed. Free Energy...
I'm not asking if this makes sense, but rather if I understand the idea. Jim
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Senior Member
Registered: 10-28-06
Posts: 722
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Oh wow, a free energy device that also includes anti-gravity? We're really reaching now. How are you going to make one side of the device "shielded" from gravity while leaving the other side to feel that force? Not that you could, but I would be interested in learning how that part hypothetically works.
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Member
Registered: 03-17-08
Posts: 7
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Yez z_bolin, There is no Santa Claus, no anti-gravity, and no free-energy. I'm merely trying to understand exactly how it doesn't work since obfuscation and ad-hominem have been high with profrog. So, I wasn't asking if my "waterwheel" analogy made sense, (as I stated) Because it is CLEARLY REDICULOUS, but... how else do you analogize what appears to be a ridiculous idea? And BTW, I'm still curious, doer my ridiculous analogy reflect What profrog is suggesting? Or, did I mis-understand. -Jim PS, You can't make an anti-grad shield, if you want weightlessness, you'll have to bring it back from orbit in a sealed container like everyone else. 
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-15-08
Posts: 174
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So is the main concern about getting free energy is getting its source of power to go back into itself? If that's the case, why hasn't anyone mentioned the feedback effect when a microphone gets too close to a speaker system? Imagine if we could harness that amplified noise to create Sound Powered Generators.
Keep this in mind, we have had sound powered sonar systems since World War One. They use piezoelectric materials to create a charge from sound. And let's not forget sound powered telephones, which are still in use on big ships to this very day!
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Senior Member
Registered: 10-04-06
Posts: 5294
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Ooh, someone inadvertently unlocked the thread by accident... well, SandJ, someone already answered that question in another thread you're posting in. Not that you're listening...
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-03-08
Posts: 276
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I apologize for the apparent incomprehensibility of my post to use tree and water power to produce free energy; I had typed it up hastily. I did some homework regarding my Post on 02-05-09: Trees pump water (sap) through their branches and leaves by capillary action. I believe this could be feasible source of free energy. The only cost involved would be in making the generator and maintenance. Once it paid for itself, the rest of the energy produced would be free. It would have three basic parts: 1,) a turbine driven electric generator, 2,) a capillary pump and 3,) reservoirs with return pipes. It would require at least 2 resevoirs one at the bottom and one at the top, above the generator turbines. This formula, h = (1.4*10^-5) /r for calculating the height of water in a capillary tube can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capillary_action . I was unable to locate formula to calculate the rate of flow for the capillary tubes.
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Senior Member
Registered: 01-31-08
Posts: 2624
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Water will flow up a tube by capillary action, it will not flow out. If you have a tube that is shorter than a height that water will flow up by capillary action it will flow to he top of the tube, then the same forces that drove the reaction will keep the water from flowing out. In trees it is ultimately the cells in the leaves pulling out the water with even finer capillary action where the water either evaporates or undergoes chemical reaction within the cells. You cannot use capillary action to power a perpetual motion machine.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-03-08
Posts: 276
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You could could drain the capillary tube the same way you collect maple syrup with a pipe on the side. A control valve would be needed to turn it off so, it may refill. Or you could bend the tube over and allow it to siphon out.
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Senior Member
Registered: 01-31-08
Posts: 2624
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That is not how capillary action works, check out the mechanics of it. It still would not leave the tube. The forces that dirve the fluid up the tube would keep it in there even if you tried to interrupt it from another access point.
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-03-08
Posts: 276
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Qoute: "Or you could bend" the top of "the tube over and allow it to siphon out."
How then do trees ooze sap from a wound?
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-18-07
Posts: 1962
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A tree uses the Sun's energy to combine various chemicals in it's environment in order to make the materials it needs to survive. One of the materials it produces is sap. Sap in a tree is under pressure in a manner similar to how blood is under pressure in your body. When wounded, the tree 'bleeds'. This 'bleeding' is not a demonstration of capillary action.
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Senior Member
Registered: 01-31-08
Posts: 2624
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The capillary action in a tree is different from sap. The tree is constantly drawing water up the xylum and is a different process than sap motion. Here is an article on capillary action in trees..
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Senior Member
Registered: 02-03-08
Posts: 276
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Junior Member
Registered: 04-16-08
Posts: 4
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by profroger:
Now, I am sure we are all familiar with the manner in which energy may be harnessed from a stream of water: a wheel of paddles is placed so that it is only partly submerged in the stream and so the power of the water turns the wheel and gives us our power output.
If the wheel were completely submerged in the stream my question to the class is, will it spin?
Note: if you try to be smart and mention specially designed paddles [as of a fan or windmill say], the hydrodynamics of which will enable it to spin under water I will mark you wrong because that is not the question I am asking.
Roger, In fact, the wheel submerged in water may spin. A stream means an assumption of a finite depth. A very small finite depth. I will assume that the wheel is submerged and is just under the surface. Now, a velocity profile for running water says that the velocity in a body of running water actually varies with respect (not linearly) to depth. At the bed of the stream, the water will actually be stagnant, unmoving. At the surface, the water will be flowing at its greatest velocity. In between, varying with depth means that the wheel will have a slightly greater velocity exerting itself on the top of the wheel as compared to the bottom of the wheel. I won't get into the logistics of the velocity difference needed to make this happen, we'll just say that it is, in fact, possible.
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Junior Member
Registered: 04-16-08
Posts: 4
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quote: But obviously if you consider only the magnitudes of the velocities [ie is speed] then you will get a scalar ke but if you consider the direction you WILL NOT get a scalar Ke.
[quote] If the vectors point in the same direction, the magnitude of the vector product is zero, so this obviously doesn't work for a vector multiplied by itself.
*** The magnitude will not be zero but infinity: if 5m is multiplied by 5m at right angles to it the result will be an area of 25 m**2. This means that the first 5m line of zero thickness is swept over 5m or added an infinite number of times over the distance. This leads to a theory in math that I developed that argues that infinity x 0 gives a finite number as also supported by the general conditions of the Laplace Theorem. So if a line of length 5m is multiplied by 5m you will need to add 5m this time [instead of 0 in the previous case] an infinite number of times and this gives infinity and not zero as you stated. -Roger, for you to chastise someone on their knowledge of mechanics is a bit rich after reading the above statements. To say that two like vectors multiplied by each other will not equal zero undermines not only your knowledge of mechanics, but of math as well. My only guess, after going through what you've written, is that you are actually talking about vectors at a right angle to each other and misread what bobfromoz was saying. You stated that two like, right angled vectors, multiplied out will actually equal infinity!!! WHAT?! Let's do this out in an example format. We have a vector with a magnitude of five in the x direction and one of equal magnitude in the y direction. When cross multiplying these out, we will get a vector with a magnitude of 25 perpendicular to the plane that is created by the two original vectors. In this specific case, it will be in the z direction. Now on to why kinetic energy is a scalar...two vectors of like magnitude and direction, when cross multiplied, will in fact give you zero. This is due to the fact that cross multiplication is a projection, where it ends up with a vector that is perpendicular to a plane created by the first two vectors. Since V^2 is just multiplying V (velocity) by itself, there is no plane created to have a final vector be perpendicular to. So, this means that any vector squared, is going to be a scalar value. You stated that this is getting into serious areas of critical thinking and math 'philosophy'. This is high school math if not first year university math. For someone who is claiming to come up with mathematical theories, I would think that linear algebra would be quite simple.
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Junior Member
Registered: 04-18-08
Posts: 4
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Hey Adam, My name is Jonathan Foster and I have a patent application with uspto.gov #20050082834. It is a published application since I wouldn't want to suppress needed technology. If you get a chance take a look. I want to make my invention available to everyone. You know they are always saying that a person can not invent perpetual motion, but, they can discover it in many forms.
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Member
Registered: 03-08-08
Posts: 30
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theres been alot of talk about magnets, now when i think about it, magnetism is the universe's nautral energy,every planet in our milky way has a magnetic core in the center putting out unlimited energy ForeveR. now just from that if nobody sees any potential with the use of this energy then they purely are not able to think on a rational level. the thing i was looking at was a motor that does run of electro-magnets, now what is interesting about this motor is that it is a complete neutral motor. it takes in exactly the same amount of energy that it puts out. so the motor is doing its thing and at the same time the current is going right thru the motor, then back into the battery. then cycle starts over again. thats why it caught my attention. but the only sad thing is that this motor negates most laws of physics. energy does not need to be used to do work with this motor. energy is simply there to be a middle man in the process. it has to be there to get it going but after its going it simply gets passed thru. the thing that you guys have to think about is laws . we have laws that keep us from speeding, tailgating, etc. but sometimes they are broken. just like the "laws" of physics and thermodynamics are also ment to be broken. and now they are. i will be glad to see if i get any questions from you guys concerning how it works, rather then just bashing it because your blinded by your own ignorance. nah just kiddin guys have fun with the idea but the only way i show the motor is to the mythbusters adam savage, and jamie "i have no respect for new ideas" hyneman. please guys not for the money but for our planet. thank u enjoy
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