Of course we all forget about the amount of energy that it takes to make darned things in the first place, and I bet you that they don't use their own products to make that energy.

unless if you can have some energy harvester which gains energy from thin air like in killzone 2, thats free energy

quote:

The derivation of the second law of thermodynamics is based off of Hamilton's equations, which work quite well for potential based forces. Is there a proof using a more general case? Anyways, magnetism is NOT a potential based force when acting on a charged particle and I certainly can't get Hamilton's equations to work with it. Funny coincidence that most claimed perpetual motion devices use magnets, given this. However, I doubt any of them have mentioned this...

Why jump to the second law so fast. Lets start at the first law. The equation central to the derivation of the first law is dw=P*dV. This equation is not completely general. The work required to set up a magnetic field in the presence of a particle can be represented in the same manner using the magnetic field intensity and the dipole moment of the particle. Which is equivalent to moving a magnet closer to a particle which is of course equivalent to the particle moving closer to the magnet. Thus, magnets must obey the 1st law of thermodynamics. From there it has already been proven in a completely general manner that the first law of thermodynamics is conservation of energy. Worse yet you can prove in general from the first law of thermodynamics that no real cyclic process is ever going to be 100% efficient which leads you right to the second law. Of course from there its a hop skip and a jump to the third law and all without any loss of generality.

For some reason people get this idea that the laws of thermodynamics were derived and proven for ideal gases only. They did certainly start there but it didn't really take long at all until they were completely generalized into any process that does work. The derivations and proofs consist of a lot of integrals and partial derivatives, some of which are very hard, but what you gain is complete generality. Once you can write down the equation that properly defines the energy changes of the system for any possible process you've found your thermodynamic state variables. From there all the calculus is the same just with different letters. Its actually very interesting to see thermodynamics rederived for something like magnetism. I myself had to rederive several thermodynamic principles for a sheet of material under tension. Aside from a few sign changes in the "Tds" equations (they relate the differential of entropy to the differentials of other state variables) nothing was different. (These equations are important because they allow you to derive the equation of state very easily for empirical measurements.) The sign changes of course had no effect on the calculus being multiplicative constants.

In short, magnets are not immune to thermodynamics no matter how you go about it.

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(coaster21) what wre you talking north and south. they are in relation to each other as push and pull.

OK. Stucker1 earlier wrote that many people who think you can get free energy use magnets somewhere in the design, and speculated that this is because they have absolutely no idea how magnets work.
You have just demonstrated the correctness of his position.

Magnets are not divided into "push" and "pull". You will never find a magnet that can only pull or push.

you lost me at

quote:

When you see a posting about a 'Free Energy' device:

Even the moon, which appears to move around the earth endlessly, will one day run out of momentum and fall into the earth.

No it won't. It'll keep moving away until both it and the Earth always show the same face or the sun turns into a red giant and swallows the planet. Pretty sure the first thing will happen and then the sun might or might not end up all the way out to the Earth. If the sun doesn't expand all the way out to the Earth than the moon and the Earth will just continue to orbit the now white dwarf sun as burned cinders until something worse happens.

but as a red giant expands it pushes the planets away so possibly the earth would be safe for a while and life might possibly exist on that hypothetical earth life may possibly exist... getting off subject sacoetrampa your thinking of mars' moons wich are in a different orbit then the earths moon.

my head hurts

Check this out: energy from nothing? quantum physics seems to back it up, im the most skeptical person, its probable crap, but could someone give it a peak.

yea you could have free energy. you can by the magnet and a copper coil. for example people have the crankable flashlight that generates its own light using the magnet and the copper coil....

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Check this out: energy from nothing? quantum physics seems to back it up, im the most skeptical person, its probable crap, but could someone give it a peak.

From what little I can tell he seems to have some pretty strange notions of electrostatic fields. One of which is that the energy contained in said fields actually exists instead of being a matter of the relative positions of charged particles. To put it another way if you have a space completely devoid of any matter or electrical fields that is infinitely large it takes no energy at all to put an electric charge inside it. The field from charge doesn't actually have any energy. If you then try to move a second charge into that space that takes energy and that energy is stored in the interaction of the two fields. Thus, the idea of an electrostatic field growing in energy as it expands is wrong. It only changes in energy when something is moved relative to it. Further, he's trying to describe a dynamic system that is not in an equilibrium state with a set of rules developed to describe either static states or states in dynamic equilibrium. You can understand how that might lead to problems.

to adr1k . even if you attached a fly wheel to generator you whould only get some energy back not enough for it to be free energy

will this be on mythbusters

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will this be on mythbusters

It already was. They did a "Free Energy" episode several years ago, and I believe have stated that there won't be another.

Why don't you give yourself as much as possible. Like 10,000,000 free obama solar cells( or did obama rip it all off "BRO"). Get a chain saw and cut a lot of fire wood and build a steam engine. Launch youself far away on a rocket and freeze solid. Buy some mathches.

Just do what i did dudes:

got the idea when watching MB's the episode about magnets, but after awile i realized what i came up with was just way to complex so i simplifed it.

Mountian bike upside down + led weights on back wheel to immitate energry storage/build up stogare/like a fly wheel early batery, a car batery, big old electirc motor "I used my dad one off the old concreet mixer", 12 volt cordless drill that can do quite hight toruqe and fast speed, link them all togeather and you have not free energy but the simpleest of all generation types, that we use all around us with out even givin them a second thought =P

the power generation is all about scale and time, you have to start out at the small end with your 12v drill but potenialy the end fly wheel can be HUGE!!!!!! all we need for amasing energy output is to start slow and steady and let the nateral progression of power build untill atime that one can harvest/turn on/switch over to your generator.

Hi,

I'm just giving you some links and maybe you can sort it all out for me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdvYXIwa0Ow


and


I know Adam and Jamie have tested sound wave properties before (the broken glass ) ), but how does sound affect our DNA or our body? Can frequencies heal?

The ancient symbol of God, the Star of David.

http://www.danmirahorian.ro/

water molecules on classical music and watter molecules on heavy metal

some other references

Nikola Tesla "If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe."

Ed Leedskalnin

electromagnetic radiation of very low frequency and the brain, emotions, capture the vibration,

energy harvest from lightning

energy grid of the Earth

Hollow Earth Theory. Sun Inside Earth.
In their childhood all stars are planets.

http://earthchanges1.spaces.live.com/


weapons using low frequency sounds to alter the brain/ conspiracy


Free energy for every family on Earth.

MythBusters are great !


Peace !

How do you get your post to stick to the top of the main forum page.

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Originally posted by Jon2273:
How do you get your post to stick to the top of the main forum page.

You don't. The moderators put stickies on posts that deserve one. If your post is worthy of having a sticky, the mods might consider it, but that's.