okay. First, As well as a myth *(which some people would probably say is fake on principal)* I have an idea I'd intended to submit to the 'prototype this' squad but cant find the right place to post it.

The myth is this, that back during the dynasty of the yellow emporer in ancient china - china had steam powered machines. Now I know where people are gonna jump here, I dont mean like super-powered mechs or anything; I mean highly primitive steam powered cars, bikes and one-man flying machines.

Some say that there are scrolls claiming that this technology once existed and that even with the metalworking skills and everything being as primitive as it was back there that it was possible.

The challenge I would put forth is to have this properly researched with well known historians and stuff and (more interestingly) to attempt to build a steam-powered vehicle or flying machine using the kind of technology and techiques that would have existed in china 2000 years ago.

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The second thing was a suggestion for when I was thinking about airplane crashes. Somebody should prototype airbags for planes. Not a bag that expands underneath the plane but one that (if the plane is liable to crash) blows off panels on the TOP of the plane and inserts a diregible style helium balloon from compressed helium tanks. (or similar device)

typo; 'inflates' a balloon

Some light aircraft have parachute systems for this purpose. For an emergency measure a helium balloon seems more expensive, heavy, and complicated than is neccessary.

Linkage

Both are unlikely just on the weight factor of equipment needed. Unless the laws of physics on this planet have changed since.

quote:

dynasty of the yellow emperor in ancient china.

It would not be possible to have any type of flying machine powered by steam. Outside of the steam punk genre,
The methods and equipment make for good stories or animation. but not much would work in real life. As for the structural strength needed for the machines. to contain and make the steam do useful work.
Secondly the lifting gas would be hot air and not helium or hydrogen gas. Since helium is found only in very rare areas and limited amounts outside of the oil and gas fields in the US. OK and the northern section of TX.
If they would have a one person balloon it would be faster and easier to move them from the ground with a rope and people or horse power.
Lastly with as much stuff that has been found, to have been really built in China. There is no need for some half bake BS.

And yes there were several attempts in the 1920'30' to make and fly steam powered airplanes. even with the completely closed system and flash steam generators. They were not able to make them commercially workable.
There is a vid film clip of one of them airplane flying on the net.

As to the plane idea, I suggest that you google helium lift and read the section on lift and then follow the math ft figure out that it is beyond silly. It since even the large parade balloons require up to 24 hours to inflate before use.
Not even taking the weight of all the equipment needed add to the plane to make it work the weight of a standard high pressure helium cylinder (300 cubic foot is) 132 pounds empty. Helium has a lifting capacity of 1.02 kg/m3 (0.0640 lb/ft3) That works out to each cylinder lifting 19.2 pounds each. The plane would never be able to move let alone fly.

about the steam vehicles from china. they did have some form of steam making equipment bake then mainly used fire to make it so it is possible that the scrolls do exist.

quote:

Originally posted by samcreel:
about the steam vehicles from china. they did have some form of steam making equipment bake then mainly used fire to make it so it is possible that the scrolls do exist.

What?

mjoat, this is why I specifically said that I didnt mean mechas or like 20th century styles of planes cause I KNEW people would think of steam-punk anime.


What I meant was promitive 'automotives' built with like big clay boilers and providing lots of pulling power that doesnt seam able to get above 15 ks :P
Or like steam powered hang-gliders.

Not modern style machines designed to look like olde fashioned ones by simply having a steamy powersource :P

The physics of either of your question will not work then or now no matter what they were made out of.
The weight of a boiler made of clay would be enormous to with stand the pressure of the steam pushing outward, besides what type of engines or drives would be used with out metals,
Since you don't seem to know much about how steam operates, of the Chinese history they did have metals and items made from metals.

Any type of plane would be pointless, you could not carry enough fuel and water to generate enough steam for useful work of any kind.

Steam is vaporized water. It is an invisible gas. At standard temperature and pressure, pure steam (unmixed with air, but in equilibrium with liquid water) occupies about 1,600 times the volume of an equal mass of liquid water . In the atmosphere, the partial pressure of water is much lower than 1 atm, therefore gaseous water can exist at temperatures much lower than 100 °C (212 °F)

A steam engine uses the expansion of steam in order to drive a piston or turbine to perform mechanical work. The ability to return condensed steam as water-liquid to the boiler at high pressure with relatively little expenditure of pumping power is important. Engineers use an idealised thermodynamic cycle, the Rankine cycle, to model the behavior of steam engines.

I suggest you google steam and steam engines so you will get an idea of what is involved.

If the Chinese had planes of any type or road vehicles other than wagons, There would be evidence still around as they would have made into small sculptures,and put into they painted art work in scrolls and tapestries. Which all copies wouldn't have been destroyed.

Only you seem to care

This reply is only to Mjoat only.

Historically, China had superior metallurgy to anyone else until the early 1800's so they had the fundamental technology needed to produce a basic steam engine. They could have made one powerful enough to move a boat but probably not any other vehicle.

Steam won't work for aircraft because it doesn't produce enough power per unit of weight. Even with modern cutting edge materials, I doubt we would be able to make an experimental heavier than air craft using steam much less a practical one. Lighter-than-air craft are actually more sensitive to weight than are heavier-than-air craft. A low power engine would perform proportionally worse on a lighter-than-air craft than a heavier-than-air.

I am an amateur student of technological history and the question of why China did not produce the scientific and industrial revolutions is one of the central questions of the field. It's call the question of "the great divergence" i.e. why the west evolved and the orient did not. They had all the right technological hardware but it appears they lacked the proper political or cultural software to make things work.

quote:

Originally posted by shannonlove:
Steam won't work for aircraft because it doesn't produce enough power per unit of weight. Even with modern cutting edge materials, I doubt we would be able to make an experimental heavier than air craft using steam much less a practical one. Lighter-than-air craft are actually more sensitive to weight than are heavier-than-air craft. A low power engine would perform proportionally worse on a lighter-than-air craft than a heavier-than-air.

Here is a 1933 film of a steam powered airplane
Besler steam airplane
The biggest drawback to steam powered anything is the cost of building and operating anything. whith so many other types of power available.

how many helium balloons does it take to lift a ....car,bus,people