This myth comes off a massive argument me and a friend are having. We got into a discussion over whether a human being can fire a semi-automatic weapon at the same RPM or more as an automatic weapon. We used a Thompson submachine gun as a basis, which has a minimum RPM of 600. Having seen footage of exhibition shooter Jerry Miculek firing a Colt M1911 at an RPM of 674, I am convinced it can be done. However my friend refuses to believe so even after seeing the evidence.

I would forever love the Mythbusting team if they can prove my associate wrong, and also testing all of his points. My friend believes that in order for it to be a valid test, the exact same ammunition must be used, the weapon must be completely unmodified, and the weapon must have both a semi-automatic and automatic firing mode, or at the very least two of the same weapon, one modified to fire in automatic.

Both the M1911 and Thompson use .45 ACP so I win in that argument, however my friend is convinced Jerry had modified the trigger on his pistol to allow him to pull it much more smoothly. As for the final point, he believes the different construction of a thompson and m1911 skew the data.

I would post a link to the video footage, however the footage comes from rival network The History Channel and I am not sure if it is allowed. A simple Google search of "Jerry Miculek quick shooting" should turn up the video in question.

i am pretty sure it can be done if an attachment like what is on paintball guns (allowing index and middle finger to fire) were added. with the standard trigger it would be quite difficult but not impossible.

i wonder which one would get to hot to hold first? i believe the thompson could "take the heat" longer its designed for sustained fire.
its barrel is much longer and has fenting fins on top.

i agree with your friend its an apple/oranges test.

Hello:

FA vs SA??? Hummmm...since the provacative Bob Munden can do 5 in just about 2/100's of a second, I would say he has all of them beat...Of course he is using a single action revolver and the hammer is a bit tweaked but still..

I wouldnlt want to bet against this from happening as some fo the better IPSC shooters could probably beat a FA...

JPH

Deuce Stevens of Cowboy Action fame can draw a single action, fire five, holster it, draw his second single action, fire five in 2.49 seconds. If you subtract his reaction time and his holstering and drawing time that comes out to 10 shots in 1.11 seconds. That is very close to 600 rounds/minute. Amd remember, a single action must be cocked for each shot. BTW, he doesn't shoot tricked out guns either. Both revolvers are box stock Ruger Vaqueros.
See his videos on youtube.

The difference 'twixt a semi-auto, single action or double action and a Thompson is finger fatigue. You cannot keep up with a Thompson for very long.

Sorry maybe a little off topic but my recruiter claimed the other day that he could shoot an m4 as fast on semi as it could be shot on auto... haha he has been known to...exaggerate.. is this possible? haha

demonmarine, your friend is correct that the different construction of the thompson vs. the 1911 could skew the results. Only if the two had the exact same length of travel and reciprocating mass in the mechanism, same spring rates, trigger lock time, etc. would you have a valid comparison.

Whether firing the same weapon in semi-auto would be faster than full auto depends on the design of the firearm. Take the M16 as an example. When fired in full auto mode, the auto sear in this system releases the hammer a very short distance before the bolt carrier reaches the end of its travel. In semi-auto, the disconnecter will release the hammer to the sear at some distance (I don't have a reference that says at what point this occurs) prior to the bolt carrier reaching the end of its travel. At this point, pulling the trigger will release the hammer. Now if the point at which the disconnecter releases is earlier than the auto sear release, the weapon could theoretically be fired faster semi-auto than full auto. In practice, the person pulling the trigger wouldn't be able to match the time at which the disconnecter releases consistently, so firing full auto will be faster when the human is factored in.

Fully-automatic weapons have greatly differing rates of fire. Some even below 600 rpm, which is achievable by a fast shooter.

But many are much faster; the German WWII machine guns fired at about 1200 rpm.

The M-16 has a rate of fire of 700-950 rounds per minute on full automatic fire depending on the model.

Good luck maintaining that rate of fire with a semi-automatic weapon for any length of time.

A Chain/mini gun has a rate of fire of around 4000 rounds per minute.

Off the top of my head the average rate of fire for automatic rifles these days is about 800 rounds per minute. Sub-machine guns, such as the MP5, are much the same (the MP5 has a rof between 700 and 900 rpm, depending on the model).

The Thompson sub-machine gun is obsolete, and has been since the late 1940's.

bump firing allows you to fire fully automatically, sort of, here is a video, it appears that he is firing as fast as a rifle normally would
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIC8SMttjjo

@batosai33: Well in the video Jerry did fire with both index fingers on the trigger so I suppose its somewhat similar.

@Lex9: Well if you could maintain that kind of RPM on the M1911 it would definitely heat up first but the argument was using the Thompsons RPM as the base speed, we weren't actually comparing the two guns.

@Dr.JP Hrisoulas and blackpowderpulp: Haven't heard of either of them or seen their shooting (probably going to google them now). I am impressed however if they've done it single action revolvers since I've seen Jerry use double action revolvers. Reaction times included, Jerry apparently broke a record when he fired 6 shots from his double action revolver, reloaded it, and fired 6 more shots, in just under 3 seconds. Might have an interesting day if we gather these three men in one room.

@telecomm1: Probably exaggerating. Or he's a robot.

@Wmurph: That I agree with, the different construction would skew the data but the whole argument wasn't comparing the two guns. We had just picked a Thompson as the base RPM we would use. Anything less and my friend wouldn't consider it a worthy endeavor (he wanted to use an MG42 which is completely unfair. Shows to me he just wanted to win as badly as I do but without actually proving anything). After seeing Jerry beating a Thompsons RPM, now he wanted a side by side comparison of the same gun which I agree would make a much more valid test but is now going beyond the point, which was can a human fire a semi-auto at full auto speeds, regardless of the gun. It was a basic "can it be done" that degenerated into a much more complicated argument. Can it be done, period? Yes I believe so. Can it be done with every type of gun? No, of course not. Is it effective? No. But it can be done, that's my entire point.

@cybermortis: Yeah I don't care about today's weapons or the Thompson being obsolete. The purpose was to compare a humans semi-auto shooting to a fully automatic weapons RPM. We used the Thompson because it came immediately to our heads as one of the slower automatic weapons, but it could have easily been any other weapon.