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Junior Member
Registered: 07-04-09
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Myth is: The byproduct from cooling nuclear power plants with ocean water is radioactive.

Reason: Ocean water is taken into the plant to cool nuclear 'processes'. Not only is there evidence of 'mega-fauna' in the surrounding ocean, local surfers also report that the water is warmer in these areas. They believe that this is a result of radioactive water expelled by the nuclear power plant after the cooling process.
Senior Member
Registered: 06-14-04
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quote:
Reason: Ocean water is taken into the plant to cool nuclear 'processes'. Not only is there evidence of 'mega-fauna' in the surrounding ocean, local surfers also report that the water is warmer in these areas. They believe that this is a result of radioactive water expelled by the nuclear power plant after the cooling process.


No its a result of that fact that in order for water to cool something it has to take heat away from it and increase in temperature. Otherwise its not cooling anything.
Senior Member
Registered: 06-14-09
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Of course the water is warmer, it is being used to cool the reactor. The water contains no nuclear particles as the reactor contains them.
Senior Member
Registered: 01-28-08
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Well if anyone is qualified to make determinations of NUCLEAR PHYSICS, it's a surfer...

⌐_⌐

Now that we've got that out of the way...

Power plants that use steam turbines, and thus water to make that steam from, are merely using the water as a heat exchange medium intended to expand and turn the turbines which are attached to generators and thus make electricity. The water itself isn't irradiated as a result, it's boiled.

When you put that much heat energy into the water, it of course is going to take quite a while to cool down, so the oft maligned cooling towers, which hearken imagery of many nuclear power plants, are a common method of cooling that water sufficiently to be re-introduced into its original source without cooking everything it touches. Despite the best efforts however, its often impractical to cool the water down to ambient temperatures before reintroduction, so it may still be warm, and indeed warmer than the surrounding water.

If the surfers were experiencing "warmth" as a result of submersion in a radioactive substance, they have already absorbed far more than would be necessary to kill them in very short order, and thus their story wouldn't be told outside of a newspaper article or perhaps more accurately an obituary.

As for supposed evidence of mega-fauna, by all means demonstrate this as such rather than making the unsubstantiated claim off-hand. Perhaps marine flora in the area that would directly benefit by water of an increased temperature year-round could thrive and become quite large, but that's not a result of being radioactive (in which case they would be dead, not mutant super-plants), it's a result of having ideal conditions for their needs. Increased animal life that can live in the conditions provided there would also be possible, and with an abundance of food they could very well thrive and grow larger to a certain extent as well, but again, this is absolutely no tie what so ever with radiation, as any dose sufficient to have an effect would be detrimental (see also: lethal) not beneficial.

Far too many anti-nuclear activists get their information from Bazooka Joe wrappers and internet blogs by people who've been indoctrinated in the same nonsense as they have been. A large dose of radiation doesn't make you into a superhero like Spiderman, it makes you into a dead man like... well... a dead man Wink

Minuscule mutations occurring naturally over generations is (relatively) stable and the results (for the most part) are at least functional if not slowly improving upon the preceding design ever so slightly so as to make the creature better able to do what it does in order to survive and perpetuate its species. Attempting to bombard something with radiation in order to make an instant mutation is fraught with problems, because the radiation that would alter the genetic code of something would be more akin to a machine gun blasting holes in the DNA, making it all but impossible to form a viable organism.

Let's take this to the ultimate real-world example...

I haven't heard of any super humans, animals, or plants, as a result of Chernobyl have you? I've heard numerous reports of premature deaths, radically increased cancer rates, and countless other instances of "illness" that have no counterpart of "good things" that have come as a result of the exposure.
Senior Member
Registered: 03-29-07
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You should also note that the river or ocean water does not come in contact or mix with water that flows through the nuclear core. They use condensers or heat exchangers to transfer waste heat from primary loop to the secondary coolant. Whether or not the secondary coolant is too warm to go directly into the ocean or river is site dependent and, if necessary, the secondary coolant water, which isn't radioactive is evaporatively cooled in the iconic cooling towers before reintroduction into the water supply.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-28-08
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Here is a very simple diagram illustrating the points made by dfez and kiaghi7.

Like they said, the water is not going to the nuclear reactor per se, but is in a separate loop.

http://www.freeinfosociety.com...e/nuclearenergy1.jpg
Junior Member
Registered: 07-01-09
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The water that is returned to the ocean for nuclear power cooling is kept very separate from any radioactive material. www.howstuffworks.com and check out power plants. They have fun diagrams of how this is accomplished.
Senior Member
Registered: 09-28-08
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flamebotdrew,

I think the link is to howstuffworks. Is the link to the video

http://videos.howstuffworks.co...lear-power-video.htm
Senior Member
Registered: 01-06-09
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The idea here is basically the same as the coolant used in a refrigerator. The coolant never actually comes in contact with the air in the refrigerator.
Junior Member
Registered: 06-30-09
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It's pretty obvious that the water never comes into contact with anything radioactive. However, if the water re-entering the ocean is heated I beleave that it could alter the ecosystem surrounding the plant. Not by any sort of radioactivity, just heat. "Mega-fauna" is probibly a bit of a reach though...
Senior Member
Registered: 07-28-05
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Hey don't blame Bazooka Joe, man that's good gum. Blame Monty Burns and Homer Simpson for the continued naivity of people when it comes to nuclear power.

According to research, about 400 or so nuclear powerplants could provide the US with all its electrical needs.
Senior Member
Registered: 06-14-04
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quote:
According to research, about 400 or so nuclear powerplants could provide the US with all its electrical needs.


And it would be right around as stupid as continuing to blow the tops off of mountains to get to coal.
Senior Member
Registered: 01-21-07
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Though one of the disadvantages to the nuclear power plants is that the current fuel rod technology is too inefficient. I do recall reading an article in Discover magazine about INL (Idaho National Laboratories) finding a few different methods to extend the usefullness of the rods. I think it was the May or June issue. Had a big light switch on the front Smile

And as previously stated, water NEVER comes in contact with the fuel rods. That is generally reserved for cooling methods like liquid sodium, which is pumped in to a heat exchanger in which only the heat transfers to water, which is also insulated from radiation. The water (steam) then turns turbines, goes to cooling towers, and is reused. Both cooling systems are generally independant closed-loop systems due to the risk of radiation leaks.
Senior Member
Registered: 01-16-07
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quote:
Originally posted by kiaghi7:

When you put that much heat energy into the water, it of course is going to take quite a while to cool down, so the oft maligned cooling towers, which hearken imagery of many nuclear power plants, are a common method of cooling that water sufficiently to be re-introduced into its original source without cooking everything it touches. Despite the best efforts however, its often impractical to cool the water down to ambient temperatures before reintroduction, so it may still be warm, and indeed warmer than the surrounding water.

If the surfers were experiencing "warmth" as a result of submersion in a radioactive substance, they have already absorbed far more than would be necessary to kill them in very short order, and thus their story wouldn't be told outside of a newspaper article or perhaps more accurately an obituary.

As for supposed evidence of mega-fauna, by all means demonstrate this as such rather than making the unsubstantiated claim off-hand. Perhaps marine flora in the area that would directly benefit by water of an increased temperature year-round could thrive and become quite large, but that's not a result of being radioactive (in which case they would be dead, not mutant super-plants), it's a result of having ideal conditions for their needs. Increased animal life that can live in the conditions provided there would also be possible, and with an abundance of food they could very well thrive and grow larger to a certain extent as well, but again, this is absolutely no tie what so ever with radiation, as any dose sufficient to have an effect would be detrimental (see also: lethal) not beneficial.



A practical example of this:

About 1.25 hours away from where I live is a major power plant that uses a local lake as a cooling source.

The lake maintains a nice 60F temperature year round. That lake is known for it's fishing. Basically the water is like summer water all year and so the fish grow well all year. The fish are not huge, but they are larger than the average fish in the area and you can get them that large all year.
Senior Member
Registered: 11-19-03
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quote:
About 1.25 hours away from where I live is a major power plant that uses a local lake as a cooling source.



WV is that Lake Anna? There was a spot right off the point where the power plant sits that always had small fish jumping. Not sure if it was where the discharge was, but there was always boats there fishing.

Never caught any of those 3-eyed fish you see on the Simpsons. But did catch some nice 4 and 5 lb. bass. Wink
Senior Member
Registered: 07-25-05
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quote:
Originally posted by sithdarth:
quote:
According to research, about 400 or so nuclear powerplants could provide the US with all its electrical needs.


And it would be right around as stupid as continuing to blow the tops off of mountains to get to coal.


And why would it be stupid to use a more efficient power source than coal?...
Senior Member
Registered: 01-16-07
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quote:
WV is that Lake Anna?


No. I was thinking of Mount Storm Lake (New Stony River Reservoir) It's a nice lake. You can actually go and swim comfortably there year round. It's just the snow that you need to worry about once you get out of the water.
Senior Member
Registered: 06-14-04
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quote:
And why would it be stupid to use a more efficient power source than coal?...


Wind is actually competitive price wise with Nuclear and solar will get there soon. Then of course there is still hot rock geothermal to explore. All of these should be exhausted before we even consider new Nuclear plants for several reasons. For starters, Nuclear plants require a lot of concrete which means a good deal of CO2 emissions to build. They also require a lot of fresh water. (Of course everything does but Nuclear is up there.) Additionally, the foot print of a Nuclear power plant is roughly the same size if not a little bigger than wind or solar plants per kWh; except once you shut down the nuclear plant and build a new one the land the old plant was on is pretty much good for nothing for centuries at least.

The disposal of Nuclear waste continues to be a problem that doesn't have a solution. Even if it did have a solution it is relatively certain to be much more expansive in the long run than avoiding producing the waste in the first place. Further, even if there was a cheap and acceptable solution there is no rational reason to take the risk of the solution failing when there are other viable options. Note that in this case waste does not just mean spent fuel. That waste is only a small portion of the dangerous radioactive waste produced for nuclear power. Someone has to mine the Uranium and not all of the Uranium mined gets out of the rocks. Additionally, the decay of the Uranium means it is surrounded by unwanted radioactive elements. All this radioactive waste rock is generally dumped in big piles like any other form of mine waste were wind and rain can spread it far and wide. After that the Uranium needs to be enriched which leaves behind tons and tons of depleted Uranium which is essentially dumped in shallow trenches and covered with dirt, or made into bullets that are shot at people and left in the field.

Then there is of course the risk of a nuclear accident. It doesn't matter how many safety features you put into a system eventually given enough time an accident will happen of some degree. Why take that risk with the lives of the people working at the plant and possibly the people within miles of the plant when there are better alternatives. Alternatives I might add that in the worse case scenarios would be very hard pressed to kill one person. Note here that this does not just include problems with the reactor. Currently spent fuel in the US is stored in temporary cooling pools because the spent fuel is so hot it would catch fire without the water. These pools are aging and some of them were actually built several feet of the ground. Any failure of one of these pools would be about as bad as an actual meltdown of the reactor. Along those lines we must consider that any green solution must be viable around the world. Nuclear energy technology cannot be given out because any part of the technology be it reactors or enrichment can easily and simply be used to make a weapon. Giving the gift of controlled nuclear energy is the same as giving the gift of nuclear weapons. The reactors produce isotopes that can be harvested to make a weapon and given the rather inexact nature of measuring spent fuel it is hard to tell if any is missing. Enrichment facilities that can make reactor grade material can make weapons grade material with essentially no modifications and can be very easily hidden.

Anyone of the reasons above is more than enough reason to avoid nuclear energy. The combination of them makes a very strong case against expansion of nuclear energy use. Now that is not to say we should just shut down our currently operating plants. However, we should not be building more plants and we should be looking at replacing the ones at the end of their intended lifespan instead of fixing them up so they can keep running. Nuclear energy is not an answer its a problem that has the potential to be much worse than pollution from oil if we depend on it to much.

Also, you can't really compare the efficiency of Nuclear Fission Plants and Coal Plants. There are just to many differences.

And for a slightly different break down of the alternatives:


Fission
Fission is just not an option. For starters any energy solution as to be a global solution. The problem with fission is that once you have the ability to make fuel for a fission reactor you can make bomb grade material in the same facility and its basically impossible to tell which you are doing. This is even more so the case when you actually take steps to hide what you are doing. As such giving out fission technology isn't really a viable option. Incidentally, neither is building the fission plants and selling them the fuel. One of the by products is the production of Plutonium that can be used in a bomb. This can be separated from the spent fuel rods with simple chemical methods at sufficient purity to build a bomb. So even if we just gave away plants the countries that got them could still make bombs.

The other big issue is storage. We've got no where to put the waste and its going to be around for a long time and there is a lot of it. The shortest of the dangerous types has a half-life of 24,000 years, the next 213,000 years, after that 2.3 million years and then 15.7 million years. These numbers are worse than they seem because it can take many many half-lives before this stuff decays to non-lethal let alone non-damaging levels. As a sense of scale recorded history doesn't even stretch back 24,000 years. Then on top of all this there are the risks of accidents and attacks and it just really stops making sense as a method of energy production.

and:

Nuclear power plants are horribly complex systems. Horribly complex systems are inherently unsafe. Worse yet the more safety features we add the greater the potential for failure. Some of the worst disasters were direct results of safety measures. Three Mile Island was caused by a stuck pressure relief value on the reactor itself. They had already been having trouble with it sticking so they put a sensor on it to indicate if it was open or closed. The thing is that one day the valve failed and stuck open and the sensor failed saying it was stuck closed. This caused an inappropriate response which came very close to a meltdown. No matter what you do things like that are going to happen and its a miracle it hasn't happened more often. Not to mention the costs of making a nuclear plant are increasing exponentially because of the safety features which aren't really doing all that much in terms of safety.

Just for reference if a nuclear plant does go in a worst case scenario event its going to probably kill more than 100 thousand people and ruin miles of land for a long time. When you loose coolant the fuel melts and the puddles at the bottom of the reactor. There it heats even more until it burns through the bottom of the reactor. It still doesn't stop there and is hot enough to actually melt through the concrete floor. The build up of the steam from this eventually causes a steam explosion that blows the containment dome apart and spreads radioactive material for miles as it gets blown by the wind. The funny part is that the radioactive cloud actually stays airborne for awhile and can end up coming down directly in the center of cities miles away that were originally thought to be safe.

Its just horribly irresponsible to keep using a technology that has already killed tens of thousands (Chernobyl) and will eventually kill many more. This is even more so when we have other energy sources that demonstrably work without the possibility of all those deaths. Its even more ridiculous that the main motivating factor is that currently nuclear power costs a little less so its perfectly ok to risk human life and ecological catastrophe. (This is very ironic considering all the hoopla about wind power bird deaths that is blown out of proportion and no where near as bad as a nuclear accident.) There simply is no logical reason to ever build a nuclear power plant. The land is basically useless forever (in human terms) once the plant it decommissioned. Tons (about 740,000 tons in the US) of depleted Uranium is just dumped or used for bullets essentially dumping it on other countries. The left over dirt from the mining of the Uranium in the first place is also dangerously radioactive and is also simply dumped somewhere. Nuclear also takes much longer to build and get operational than wind or intermediate size solar. Then there is the spent fuel problem.

Current reactors produce about 20 tons of spent fuel per year per reactor and we already have 59,000 tons stockpiled in cooling pools. There are currently 104 nuclear reactors operating in the US making 2080 tons of spent fuel a year. We'd need to increase that number by at least 3 if not 4 times to get the majority of our power from nuclear so that's 6000 to 8000 tons of spent fuel a year on top of the 59,000 tons we already have no where to put. Last I heard in February Yucca mountain was no longer under consideration as a dumping place. It turns out it was a pretty bad place to being with having once been an active volcano.

So now we have almost 60,000 tons of highly dangerous spent fuel (and more coming everyday) sitting in relatively non-secure, sometimes not very safe, and in most cases decades old cooling pools. Cooling pools that already tend to leak and if the water ever gets below a certain level the rest will basically boil off and even before that the radiation in the pool room would be deadly. After that it'll catch fire and burn loosing highly radioactive smoke into the air which would be carried by the wind most likely to populated areas. Its basically as bad as a meltdown in terms of contamination. Nuclear fission was just a bad idea to begin with and has only gotten worse with time.

As for real alternatives we have more than enough wind and solar energy alone to meet our needs. On top of that we have hot rock geothermal which can be done anywhere and could meet the energy of the world hundreds of times over with ease all by itself. To expound a little on the drawbacks of wind and solar:

Land Use:
Wind
Wind land use is nowhere near what people make it out to be. It used to be a problem with the older and smaller turbines that where first put up in California. The blades moved faster and so you had issues with throwing ice. They also had large truss support towers that look sort of like the Eiffel tower which take up a lot of space. (They have other draw backs which will be addressed later.) What's even worse is that they were set up basically shoulder to shoulder to the point where the blades almost overlapped and all facing into the prevailing wind. That and they are relatively short. The combination of these factors made them very inefficient uses of land. Not to mention the best wind potential is like 50 miles offshore anyway.

Modern wind turbines are giant and set on single poles with no support structure. They take maybe half an acre or so of land for the actual pole and a little more for the access road to get to it. Their size also means the blades spin much slower. Further they are designed in combination with this slower speed so that they only shed ice straight downward when a blade reaches the bottom. No more chucking dangerous pieces of ice. Not to mention the turbines are now hundreds of feet in the air. The net effect is that you can farm and graze animals all the way up to basically the pole of a modern wind turbine. When you add it all up Natural Gas plants use 3.7 acres of land per MW, Nuclear uses 2-3 acres per MW, and modern Wind power comes in at 3 acres per MW. So in reality there is no problem at all.

Solar
The main potential of solar power lies in intermediate size solar systems. We're talking putting solar panels mainly over parking lots. For comparison, with current solar technology if we covered 10% of the land that we have already paved (US only) in solar cells we could meet 100% of the nation's energy demand. This also translates to about 1/3 of the land currently used for military basis. Both figures count only used land area that is in the physically connect 48 states. This is land that has already been more or less destroyed in terms of Nature and can continue to be used by humans as we intended while also generating power. There is the added benefit to doing solar over parking lots in terms of Vehicle to Grid (V2G) technology when electric cars become more common. V2G technology is very promising in terms of smoothing out the power fluctuations that can sometimes happen with solar as well as improving the performance and reducing the operating cost of electric cars.

Note that there is still room for the efficiency of solar panels to double which would reduce the figure by half. Also note that no one wants to rely 100% on solar or wind. The current figures generally stated are around 20% from wind and around 30% from solar with the balance of the left over power made up for with other less mature renewable technologies (tidal, geothermal, biofuel, etc), efficiency, and conservation. There would probably still be some large solar plants put up in some places but nothing nearly as bad as what some people would have you believe. Additionally the areas will only shrink as the technology improves.

Bird Kill:
This is where those old support towers from the wind turbines come in. Birds tend to be rather good at avoiding moving objects and not so good at avoiding stationary ones. Generally speaking the turbine blades don't kill the birds. The problem with bird kills is basically exclusive to the California wind farms that were built with those Eiffel tower like support structures closely packed in a line. When a flock of birds try to fly through that some smack into the metal trusses and some are forced into the metal trusses by the birds next to them. This can be a big problem but has mostly been eliminated by several key changes:
1) Single pole construction greatly reduces the bird lethal bird strikes on the support structure.
2) Wind turbines are now huge and very very far apart. So far apart the squeezing effect isn't really an issue.
3) The wind potential in an area is now very accurately mapped and turbines are placed to optimize performance. They can also swivel 360 degrees and change the pitch of their blades to take full advantage of the wind to produce greater efficiency. Combined with larger size this means less turbines and giant wide open spaces between them.
4) Before anyone bothers to build a wind farm the check bird migration routes so as not to put them in the way in the first place.
5) The best wind is a good ways off the coast in basically any large body of water to begin with.

To really get a perspective on this you have to compare the number of bird kills via other human activities. Current wind farms kill about 2.6 birds per turbine per year and to get 20% of our current electricity demand we'd need 211,000 turbines which would kill about 550,000 birds a year. In contrast to that communications towers (cell, TV, radio etc) kill 4-5 million birds in a year. Pesticides and oil spills kill 67-76 million birds in a year. Vehicle collisions claim another 80 million birds every year. The buildings we live in work in are attributed with 78 million to 930 million total kills depending on various factors and who you ask. Finally, the number one undisputed champ is domestic house cats which kill about 450 million birds every year. So as you can see not only are wind farm bird kills a non-issue we could potentially cause a net decrease in the number of birds killed just by eliminating the need to ship and pipe oil.
Senior Member
Registered: 07-25-05
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That is quite a bit of info there.

There is no way I can address everything there. You list a great deal of detrimental info but you didn't post any of the benefits of nuclear. That is understandable given your position on the issue.

I can see your point but I see a larger picture of advances in technology allowing us to re-use what was once considered "spent" fuel. The French are already ahead of us on this one with their feeder reactors. There are also methods being developed to "fast forward" the decay process of spent fuel rods. It basically speeds up the depletion process and extracts the energy remaining rather than the slow bleed of radiation over several centuries.

I agree with you in your statements that solar is a viable source of energy. With the recent development of flexible film solar cells I think we will soon see a surge in solar power utilization.

But it seems your main problem with Nuclear is the safety issue. You say that we should stop using technology that has killed tens of thousands of people. So I guess you are all for abandoning automobiles, airplanes, trains, and water travel too, yes?

And I am curious as to how many nuclear power disasters we have had in our country that resulted in loss of human life in recent history?

Nobody died at 3 mile island. There was some mild radiation exposure but nothing that caused any effects greater than that of having a chest x-ray. Unless you believe the conspiracy theorists, that is.

Other than that, how many?

People always cite Chernobyl. But that is in a country that was (at the time) notorious for shoddy craftsmanship, poor work conditions, and deplorable workplace safety practices. It makes sense that they would have an accident.

How many of our nuclear subs or naval vessels have had meltdowns? And those are MOBILE reactors that other people shoot explosives at.

Detractors of nuclear energy love to point out what bad things COULD happen. But they never really point out that it could offer an alternative to foreign oil and help us become energy independent. Freeing up more resources to look for more green energy alternatives.

Solar is great....unless you live in an area that doesn't get much sun. Not to mention that until the new technology becomes cheaper the average end user could never afford to retrofit their home for solar use.

Wind is fine, unless you live in an area that doesn't have a steady predictable corridor of wind such as in California or other coastal states. Not to mention the mechanical complexity of a fully functional wind farm. Hundreds upon hundreds of huge spinning turbines that are subject to all manner of environmental stress.

Geothermal is awesome! I use a ground water source heat pump for my homes heating and air conditioning. But it struggles horribly in the winter and my children get cold. I hopefully will remedy that soon with a new heat exchanger but it will cost me another few thousand dollars to get it done right.

Just because people fear something is no reason to abandon it. It means more research must be done in order to perfect the technology and make it more efficient.

You say that "horribly complex systems are inherently unsafe". That is as wild a generalization as I have ever heard. And it doesn't hold water.

The human body is horribly complex. Is it unsafe? Aircraft are horribly complex, with multiple redundant safety measures built in. Are they unsafe? Large city mass transit systems are a complete boondoggle. Are they unsafe?(maybe inconvenient but not unsafe)

I think that nuclear will eventually be refined to the point that it will be as safe as any other power source. But it will take a lot of work and the acceptance of people who fear it before that ever happens.
Senior Member
Registered: 06-14-04
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quote:
But it seems your main problem with Nuclear is the safety issue. You say that we should stop using technology that has killed tens of thousands of people. So I guess you are all for abandoning automobiles, airplanes, trains, and water travel too, yes?


1) My main problem with Nuclear energy is everything. Its inherently unsafe, it produces some of the worst waste known to man, it can't be used outside of countries that already have nuclear weapons, etc.

2) The difference is that we have no viable alternatives to those. We have at least 3 perfectly viable alternatives to Nuclear power.

quote:
And I am curious as to how many nuclear power disasters we have had in our country that resulted in loss of human life in recent history?

Nobody died at 3 mile island. There was some mild radiation exposure but nothing that caused any effects greater than that of having a chest x-ray. Unless you believe the conspiracy theorists, that is.

Other than that, how many?

People always cite Chernobyl. But that is in a country that was (at the time) notorious for shoddy craftsmanship, poor work conditions, and deplorable workplace safety practices. It makes sense that they would have an accident.

How many of our nuclear subs or naval vessels have had meltdowns? And those are MOBILE reactors that other people shoot explosives at.


As far as I know no one has ever died from swallowing a lit M-80. That doesn't mean I'm going to try it. That's a little extreme but you get the point. No system is perfect and an accident might not happen today or tomorrow but one will eventually happen. If we had no alternatives this would be an acceptable risk but we have plenty of alternatives.

quote:
Detractors of nuclear energy love to point out what bad things COULD happen. But they never really point out that it could offer an alternative to foreign oil and help us become energy independent. Freeing up more resources to look for more green energy alternatives.


This is simply wrong. For example this graph show that as far as electricity generation goes its pretty much all coal and no Petroleum. Or you could read the section on oil here and see that the use of Petroleum for electricity doesn't even make it onto the list. Any given nuclear power plant is probably going to replace a coal plant. A coal plant that gets its coal from the US. Basically all coal comes from the US because its so hard to transport and we need so much of it. Building Nuclear plants are not going to free us from foreign oil at all.

quote:
Solar is great....unless you live in an area that doesn't get much sun. Not to mention that until the new technology becomes cheaper the average end user could never afford to retrofit their home for solar use.


There is no such area or rather Germany has some of the worse sun conditions imaginable and they still manage to make solar work. Aside from that we don't need house sized systems. We need medium sized systems on the tops of parking garages and the like. The larger the system the cheaper it becomes because the main cost isn't the solar panels. The main cost is the inverters that make the DC power AC. Take a look as the solar resource of the US and now take a look at Germany. They have less solar resources then Alaska and yet still lead the world in solar energy. If Germany can do it the it can easily be down anywhere in the US.

quote:
Wind is fine, unless you live in an area that doesn't have a steady predictable corridor of wind such as in California or other coastal states. Not to mention the mechanical complexity of a fully functional wind farm. Hundreds upon hundreds of huge spinning turbines that are subject to all manner of environmental stress.


Simply not true. Modern wind turbines are very tall for a reason. Up there almost everywhere as some wind resource and it tends to not change directions. The US has a pretty good wind resource in more areas then you might think. In fact there is even more wind off shore which is pretty handy considering a very large portion of our population either lives on a coast and very near a coast. Here is another map with the offshore wind resource added. They even took of all the areas with wind that wasn't good for making power and there is still a lot left. A secondary benefit is that even if one turbine in a wind farm dies it has no effect on the others. If one part of Nuclear plant fails that's the end of the entire plant's production until its fixed.

quote:
Geothermal is awesome! I use a ground water source heat pump for my homes heating and air conditioning. But it struggles horribly in the winter and my children get cold. I hopefully will remedy that soon with a new heat exchanger but it will cost me another few thousand dollars to get it done right.


That's not the kind of Geothermal I'm talking about but it is one of the options. Hot Rock geothermal drills much deeper for rocks that are hot enough to produce steam. Then you send water down and use the steam coming up to make power.

quote:
Just because people fear something is no reason to abandon it. It means more research must be done in order to perfect the technology and make it more efficient.


I do not fear Nuclear energy I just know that there are must better options. Further we've had more than 50 years to prefect the technology. Its not going to improve very much at this point.

quote:
You say that "horribly complex systems are inherently unsafe". That is as wild a generalization as I have ever heard. And it doesn't hold water.


Of course it does. The more complex anything is the more likely it is to fail because it depends on more and more parts all working perfectly and every part is a chance for failure.

quote:
The human body is horribly complex. Is it unsafe? Aircraft are horribly complex, with multiple redundant safety measures built in. Are they unsafe? Large city mass transit systems are a complete boondoggle. Are they unsafe?(maybe inconvenient but not unsafe)


Look at how fragile we are even though we are capable of self repair. One miss folded protein and we get debilitating or deadly diseases. A little bit of radiation of chemicals and we get cancer. We get killed by living things so small we can't even see them and all the do is attack one system. To continue the analogy to Nuclear Power the more plants we build and the more complex they get the more likely an accident becomes. There is actually a whole branch of science dedicated to this.

quote:
I think that nuclear will eventually be refined to the point that it will be as safe as any other power source. But it will take a lot of work and the acceptance of people who fear it before that ever happens.


Its never going to be as safe as other energy sources because it is always going to be a barely controlled explosion. Further, no matter what you do its always going to produce waste from various sources from the fuel to the mining. Above all that anyone that gets there hands on a reactor, any reactor, can easily use it to make the material they need for a weapon.
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