quote:

Things I think would be helpful are more stickies on common topics.

Except people don't read the existing ones. The questions in the "Weapons" PTD sticky still are the questions that get posted the most.

Yes, I was sick of having to cull 5 or more new w-4-g advertisements each day in "Transportation", and commented that I kept thinking of putting together a quick post, and MM told me to go ahead. It did cut down on the number of new posts for about a month, but it didn't eliminate them completely, and they're coming back with a vengeance after a brief reprieve.

I think one thing we could all do to help (as has been suggested before), is to *not* dredge up old posts that are about to go off the first page.

If someone responds fairly soon to a post, then that's fine. But if the post is about to drift off into oblivion, bringing it back to the top just to make a snide comment, or to request a "Find" is rather pointless. As are the "me too" posts. If someone has already answered sufficiently, and there is nothing new to add, then why add to it anyways? Yes, often several posters type a reply at the same time, and there can be no replies when you start to type, and then suddenly 3 replies when your post is submitted, but there's no real need to repeat information hours or days later.

quote:

Originally posted by wv_engineer:

quote:

And in reality how much harder is it to post a link and explain how to use then find in a polite way then it is to berate them?

You initially recommended that you do all the work for the poster. That is a lot of typing of the behalf of the replier and what does the OP learn? Nothing good. They learn that they can post something with little to no thought or research and the will have someone else do everything for them. That does not encourage them learn to use the features of this system. it just means next time they will come back and do the same thing and let someone else do all the leg work for them.

No, what I said was; "When a person posts something that has been posted for the 12 million-th time. Do a quick find and post the find link along with a POLITE explanation of using the FIND button and the SEARCH. Also if you have time a quick summation of the previous results of the discussion." So why this instead of just telling them to use the find or sending them to the find tutorial? Because this actually shows them the value of the find by showing them the results of a find about their question. This makes the results personal to them and teaches them the value of using it. If you just post "use the find button" or post the link to the tutorial then you don't TEACH them the value of using find.

It does not take much extra time to do the find and post the link to the find to show them the value of doing it. It also shows that we actually care about the new members and are willing to help them.

I don't see how that is not valuable, but it is very possible I am missing something.

theTroll

Great to see this thread. I'm a first time poster who started a thread on shooting a wire. All I was looking for was a discussion on this "Myth", instead I found senior members saying thing that were outright rude, condescending and unsupportive to the topic of the post. Further I went and read some of these peoples posts on other peoples topics, it was all the same no matter who they talked to. Its a pattern with some of the senior members, they just want to feel superior and being disrespectful is how they accomplish this it seems. Hugely dissapointed no wonder the MB's don't read these boards if the most seniors of us act in such an attrocious manner.

Understandable point of view but far from functional.

The theory you are presenting assumes that once they get one answer and instruction on using the find button they will begin using it instead of merely pretending they have not received such instruction and waiting for someone else to post them a link and friend bit of education.


Perhaps I am jaded by my experience of human beings in general Troll, but you have to really pound on someone in a mental sense for them to get an idea and change a habit.



Just look at Prochaska and Di'clements cycle of change.

1) Pre contemplation, this is the point in time when no problem id recognised

2) Contemplation, when a problem is recognised and a desire to change or alter begins to form

3) Preperation, when the desire to change has reached a head and the person is both mentaly and physically preparing themselves to change that habit or natural action pattern.

4) Action, the stage in which an activity is activly being replaced, removed or changed

5) Maintenance, when the person activly has to think about the change to keep it maintained and prevent slipping into previous stages.

And you reach the begining again when the change no longer has to be thought about.



Having looked at how people change habits, there needs to be an active need within that person even after the recognise a problem before they contemplate change. By providing the education on the find system even with encouragement to use it the active need to change is reduced by providing the link to the information.

While some find the active need to change just in the desire to better themselves these people are few and far between, and it is the general state of the populace, myself included to desire a retention of the current state of events.


By not supplying any information but directing people towards where they can find that infomation but not providing direct connection you encourage people to search out the information and provide a more forceful active need to change.

Just like a professor in colledge who tells a student the name of a book that can help, but wont tell them how to get it, or where to get it, or give them a copy.

My thing is by posting the link to the search results, you are doing the search for them, they are not learning how to use it themselves. They are learning to get others to do the work for them.

Why should you use the find when you just post something stupid and someone else will come along and do the research for you because they are trying to teach you something?

That may work if there was some way to limit the number of times that a person has a search done for them. So that you get, say, 2 freebies, and after that they get the ol' "Use the FIND." Otherwise each thing they post will just have someone else doing the search for them and posting them the results. Problem is I have no idea hot to implement that on a board this big with this many members, without it being a huge inconvenience on the people who are replying to the poster.

Basically, if someone else is always doing the work for them, there is no incentive for them to learn to do it themselves. There needs to be some form of a limit when people are expected to do it for themselves.

"Use the FIND." If you are a new user, especially one that has never been on a bulletin board before would most likely find that rude because they have no idea what is going on.

The problem is that we have people on here with all kinds of levels of experience and knowledge. You both are pretty experience and know what is going on. You understand when you are new to a board, you read the stickies and rules and then start posting. Most people won't know that unless someone educates them.

It seems that both of you first assume the person is lazy or dumb and just ignore them fact it is just as likely they are uninformed. So why can't we just assume to start out they are uninformed and go from there.

I believe it would make for a more friendly board and a much more inviting place. Now with all of that; "You can't teach stupid or lazy". So there is a point that you just give up if a person doesn't learn, but even then there is no reason to berate them, just click on their name, hit ignore and more on.

theTroll

I'm not claiming this is "proof" of anything, or even a scientific sampling, but I took a quick delve into 'Page 8' of several sections, and clicked on some of the recognizably PTD myths.

In every example I encountered in my cursory snoop, the post was the poster's one and only post on the boards. It didn't matter whether no response at all was given, or if a snarky answer was posted, or a civil answer or a "Use 'Find'" admonition.

It seems as if worrying about whether the poster "learns" to use 'Find' is rather pointless. For the most part new people seem to ask their one PTD question and be done with it.

So, where theTroll's suggestions would be an improvement would be the people who *do* end up hanging around -- people either scanning the forums before joining, or searching for a particular subject after joining. If all they see is harshness and backbiting, someone wouldn't be blamed for thinking "What a bunch of _______s!" and shying away from here. How do we know they *don't* have valid information and viewpoints to share, once they get through their first few posts and get a feel for things?

There's no more reason to assume that people *won't* learn to search, than there is to assume they will.

... or just overlook the thread and not post on it at all.

The use the FIND button statement can be softened a bit so it doesn't look like you're biting their heads off. A link to the FIND button tutorial would also be a nice touch.

Posting that a thread has been reported helps me. I can search the board for that particular phrase in order to check to see what needs to be looked at. If you feel it needs to be looked at sooner, feel free to email me a link and a short explanation of why. My email is mythmod@gmail.com.

MM

Again Roofing and Troll you both have good and sensible points.

I have to disagree with you Troll on the likelyhood someone is uniformed. In this day and age there are forums and internet activities for people of every age. This place included. And ones that appeal to people of every age.
The likelyhood in a country where internet access is widely accepted most individuals will have at least some experience posting on a message board of some sort.

Now I will agree that some people may simple be uninformed but the likelyhood swings muh more favourably in the direction of people simply not wanting to be bothered.

As to just giving up, well to be honest I have to say that with all the seniors on the board if 20 seniors took on your advice that is 20 potential free answers, and a true out and out lack of any need to change.

And agreed that alot of individuals who post PTD myths, or CMOP as my thread calls them are one stop posters and will learn absolutly nothing from a reply be it positive or negative.

And agreed perhaps my replys to some threads could be soffened about. But then I am not awfully soft I am a big grumpy one.


I like being grumpy

I guess my thinking on this is that if the first page of your search results are just a stack of unanswered posts or "Use 'Find'" posts, there's a tendency to get frustrated and not keep poking through the results. A link to better answers and/or an encapsulated answer will make the 'Find's more worthwhile.

Imagine that -- the first search hit gives you the answer you want! Who woulda thunk it?

But MM is absolutely right. There's always the option of not responding.


But, on the other hand I like being grumpy too.

I know for me the frustrating thing is the lack of fresh content. You have to wade through the PTD stuff to find something interesting. I think the vast majority of this is a result of the one and done posters.

I'm not trying to over work mythmod but what about writing some code that would make your first ten posts have to be moderated before they were posted. We could form a group to help mythmod.

This way, you could keep the PTD, advertisments, posts not made in good faith, and the down right stupid off the board. I'm well aware of the slippery slope associated with what some of you are going to call censorship but you simply have a note in the post section that says something to the effect of "If you don't see your post on the board the answer can be found in the find section" and move on.

After 10 posts, when they have proven that they are posting in good faith and understand the rules the restriction is lifted.

I don't think this idea is perfect, I'm just trying to stimulate a discussion on a solution to a problem that we all seem to observe. While being nice is a great start, it doesn't address the root problem it only encourages the behavoir.

Just my thoughts.

mc

Idealcrap -- Mythmod has absolutely no abilities to alter or write code for this website.

galaktia -- Ok, but somebody does. There has to be webmaster somewhere that moderates the board.

Also, I just thought of something else. If we believe that some of the problems are caused by kids then lets give them their own section. Call it the homework section. This way kids could post up questions about homework, science projects, research papers, video games, whatever. Then the people who don't want to waste their time with the more basic questions or don't have the desire to teach could just ignore the group.

This way the kids have a place to express themselves and learn and we all know that the children are our future.

mc

idealcrap, we have a section like that - it's called Science and Myth Questions.

Modding every members' first 10 posts would a nightmare, considering how many new members there are and the vast number of boards on the Discovery's message board system. A change like that would affect EVERY board. It would also frustrate first time posters. Getting something in the modqueue because of a trigger word is bad enough, now we should modqueue someone just because they're new? No.

MythMod

quote:

Originally posted by idealcrap:
galaktia -- Ok, but somebody does. There has to be webmaster somewhere that moderates the board.

Also, I just thought of something else. If we believe that some of the problems are caused by kids then lets give them their own section. Call it the homework section. This way kids could post up questions about homework, science projects, research papers, video games, whatever. Then the people who don't want to waste their time with the more basic questions or don't have the desire to teach could just ignore the group.

This way the kids have a place to express themselves and learn and we all know that the children are our future.

mc

You're on the internet, not in a school or anything like that. The average joe barely reads the section names. He also doesn't read any stickies. Even with a "homework help" or something similar, there will still be spam in every single other board.

This is a public forum for a very popular TV show. You have to except the worst from everyone. I know it sounds bad, but that's just how the internet works. Anonymity dominates, and it will be like that for a long time, or even forever. The majority don't care that you tell them to use the find button, or if you tell them they made the topic in the wrong part of the forums. It won't change what they do. It's a lot different when a teacher tells you to stop talking in class, than a random forum member telling you to stop spamming.

And you can still ignore topics that don't interest you as it is now. What gives people the mentality to go into a topic that they have no interest in, knowing it's just spam, and then say "Use the find button"? Sorry to say, but you're not saving the world by doing so.

Just to add to my previous post since I can't edit it...

I'm not going to name names, but some of you seem to think this is a private forum where the rules are expected to be following very strictly. That's not the case. It's a shame this board doesn't publicly display such statistics, but I'd bet that there's atleast 2000+ people online viewing this forum right now.

Thank you MasterMisfit for that. You are a perfect example about why I am trying to get a change to the site. These are the people that are often driven away, not because they are lazy or morons but just don't know any better.

You would be surprised by how many people have never used most of the stuff on the internet.

theTroll

What is perceived as worse to a new poster?
Ignoring them, and they receive no responses.
Or, giving them information on using the find button.

If I were a 1st time poster and I was ignored, I would leave and not come back.
If someone were rude (my perception of rude) to me, I would probably be rude back. (Sorry, that's just how I am) But, sometimes this tells some 1st time posters to leave and not come back if they perceive members as being rude.

I believe we cannot ignore them, and we must educate them. Of course this is not educating them, "NO! USE THE FIND BUTTON!" or "There is a FIND button, I suggest using it."

I don't believe we should post a link to the results of a particular FIND either, as this might be perceived as a negative response as well.

There is a softer approach that can still get your point across without running off the new member. How about, "Welcome to the board 'new member!' We look forward to your thoughts, myths, and ideas. This question (or myth) has already been asked. (Or posted) You can use the 'find' button to locate it. We'll see you there!" or "Welcome to the team! This is a great question. (Or myth) And I have some great news, this topic is already being discussed. You can use the 'find' button to join the discussion. See you there!"

I am no Saint, as I too have responded in a negative way to some of these "post-and-runs" with their ridiculous questions, statements, myths, repeats, and bad grammar / spelling. Looking back, I am not proud of my actions. This is my chance for redemption. From this point forward, I will always be positive. Unless, that is, I am attacked, where I will attack back with twice the force. (Sorry, I can't turn the other cheek, that's not how I'm wound)

HUDMAN,

If you're "attacked," it should not be up to you to have to defend yourself. That's why I am here. If someone DOES verbally attack you, they are to be reported to the moderation staff. You don't have to turn the other cheek, but you should at least not let them drag you down to their level. Report it or email me a link and let me take care of it - after all... that's what I'm here for.

MythMod

MythMod, that's a good point. I do tend to let people drag me down to their level. It's not because of the anonymity of the internet either. I let people get to me in the "real world" as well.

On a business trip through West Virginia once, I had a car with Illinois license plates really messing with me for about 100 miles. From passing me and slowing down and not letting me pass back, to throwing trash out the window and hitting my car. I could have hit the little "On Star" button and reported them for road rage, but instead, I waited for them to stop for gas. Even though there were 2 guys in the car, I parked in front of them, blocking their getaway, got out, and verbally abused them until they finally stopped fueling, backed up and went on their way. I passed them again on the interstate, and this time they didn't resume their activities and I never saw them again. My goal was to teach them a lesson, and this time it worked.

Looking back, this was very dumb on my part.
#1 They could have reported me to the police.
#2 They could have shot me.
#3 As a conceal & carry permit holder, I had a Sig 40 on me. If they tried to fight, who knows what might have happened.

I let them drag me to their level, and instead of remaining defensive, I became offensive.

I told myself that if this ever happens again, I'll hit the "On Star" button instead of taking matters into my own hands.

I know I need to change, so now I'm telling myself that if anyone verbally attacks me on these boards, I will let you know. Thanks for being there.