My wife teaches English 101 at a local university. She says there is talk in the school about requiring students to take a English placement test when they come into the school, like many schools do with math.

The biggest problem with this is they are estimating something like 60-80% of the students would then be required to take remedial English 99 before they would be ready for normal English classes. If nothing Else, She does like the polocy the school has. There are a half dozen classes each student is required to pass to stay in the school. English 101 is one of them. They have 2 to pass that class, if they fail a second time, they are kicked out of the school permanently. Sop far this semester, he has a total of 7 students who have completely failed the course with no chance of passes. 2 of those are second timers. Students who fail are not allowed to come to class and students who fail the second time around are not allowed to go to any of their classes. They have something like 3 days to vacate the campus.

To give you an example of the students abilities: Note these have been cleaned up to make them readable. I can't make up something like this.

"The Great Depression was a time where the U.S. was sad and real down on itself. No one knows why. Most of the country was medicated. They were real sad...."
"A recession is where someone has to hold in their feelings deep inside and they aren't allowed to be what they wanna be."

These are actually from a coworker of my wife who teaches English and history.

Is this teacher instructing 3rd grade English and History? That's about the only way I could justify answers such as those ever being spoken/written.

And people wonder why I doubt the future of this nation...

quote:

And people wonder why I doubt the future of this nation...

I certainly don't wonder why.

quote:

Originally posted by renegade3717:
Is this teacher instructing 3rd grade English and History? That's about the only way I could justify answers such as those ever being spoken/written.

And people wonder why I doubt the future of this nation...

While normally I would heartily agree with you, for some reason I've been unusually optimistic about that lately. I even considered joining the optimist club. Then I remembered I'm always optimistic while sleep deprived or chemically influenced.

Go future generation, go!!!

The future generation.

quote:

Is this teacher instructing 3rd grade English and History? That's about the only way I could justify answers such as those ever being spoken/written.

Oh I with that was the case. This teacher is an instructor of English 102 and History 2??. that came from a SOPHOMORE level class at a major university.

This is where the idea of college edication for all has gotten us. you have people who never should have graduated middle school attending college.

I'm not sure what is more sickening. That their schools failed them so badly or that college take these kids in and steel their money when they have nowhere near the ability to pass and get a degree.

The World According To Student Bloopers
Richard Lederer
St. Paul's School


One of the fringe benefits of being an English or History teacher is receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay. I have pasted together the following "history", of the world from certifiably genuine student bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United States, from eighth grade throughout college level. Read carefully, and you will learn a lot.

The inhabitants of ancient Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the Sarah Dessert and traveled by Camelot. The climate of the Sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are cultivated by irritation. The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of a huge triangular cube. The Pyramids are a range of mountains between France and Spain.

The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the Bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of their children, Cain, once asked, "Am I my brother's son?" God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on Mount Montezuma. Jacob, son of Isaac, stole his brother's birth mark. Jacob was a patriarch who brought his twelve sons up to be, patriarchs, but they did not take to it. One of Jacob's sons, Joseph, gave refuse to the Israelites.

Pharoah forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw. Moses led them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients. Afterwards, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the liar. He fought with the Philatelists, a race of people who lived in Biblical times. Solomon, one of David's sons, had 500 wives and 500 porcupines.

Without the Greeks we wouldn't have history. The Greeks invented three kinds of columns - Corinthian, Doric, and Ironic. They also had myths. A myth is a female moth. One myth says the mother of Achilles dipped him in the River Stynx until he became intolerable. Achilles appears in "The Iliad", by Homer. Homer also wrote "The Oddity", in which Penelope was the last hardship that Ulysses encountered on his journey. Actually, Homer was not written by Homer but by another man of that name.

Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people advice. They killed him. Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock.

In the Olympic Games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and threw java. The reward to the victor was a coral wreath. The government of Athens was democratic because the people took the law into their own hands. There were no wars in Greece, as the mountains were so high that they couldn't climb over to see what their neighbors were doing. When they fought with the Persians, the Greeks were outnumbered because the Persians had more men.

Eventually, the Ramons conquered the Geeks. History calls people Romans because they never stayed in one place for very long. At Roman banquets, the guests wore garlics in their hair. Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the battlefields of Gaul. The Ides of March murdered him because they thought he was going to be made king. Nero was a cruel tyranny who would torture his poor subjects by playing the fiddle to them.

Then came the Middle Ages. King Alfred conquered the Dames, King Arthur lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harold mustarded his troops before the Battle of Hastings, Joan of Arc was cannonized by Bernard Shaw, and the victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks. Finally, Magna Carta provided that no man should be hanged twice for the same offense.

In midevil times most of the people were alliterate. The greatest writer of the time was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verses and also wrote literature. Another tale tells of William Tell, who shot an arrow through an apple while standing on his son's head.

The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of their human being. Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at Wittenberg for selling papal indulgences. He died a horrible death, being excommunicated by a bull. It was the painter Donatello's interest in the female nude that made him the father of the Renaissance. It was an age of great inventions and discovertes. Gutenberg invented the Bible. Sir Walther Raleigh is an historical figure because he invented cigarettes. Another important invention was the circulation of blood. Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100-foot clipper.

The government of England was a limited mockery. Henry VIII found walking difficult because he had an abbess on his knee. Queen Elizabeth was the "Virgin Queen". As a queen she was a success. When Elizabeth exposed herself before her troops, they all shouted "hurrah". Then her navy went out and defeated the Spanish Armadillo.

The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespear. Shakespear never made much money, and is famous only because of his plays. He lived at Windsor with his merry wives, writing tragedies, comedies, and errors. In one of Shakespear's famous plays, Hamlet rations out his situation by relieving himself in a long soliloquy. In another, Lady Macbeth tries to convince Macbeth to kill the king by attacking his manhood. Romeo and Juliet are an example of a heroic couplet. Writing at the same time as Shakespear was Miquel Cervantes. He wrote "Donkey Hote." The next great author was John Milton. Milton wrote "Paradise Lost". Then his wife died and he wrote "Paradise Regained".

During the Renaissance America began. Christopher Columbus was a great navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic. His ships were the Nina, the Pinta, and the Sante Fe. Later, the Pilgrims crossed the ocean, and this was known as Pilgrims Progress. When they landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by the Indians, who came down the hill rolling on their back. Many of the Indian heroes were killed, along with their cabooses, which proved very fatal to them. The winter of 1620 was a hard one for the settlers. Many people died and many babies were born. Captain John Smith was responsible for all this.

One of the causes of the Revolutionary Wars was the English put tacks in their tea. Also, the colonists would send their parcels through the post without stamps. During the war, the Red Coats and Paul Revere was throwing balls over stone walls. The dogs were barking and peacocks crowing. Finally, the Colonists won the war and no longer had to pay for taxis.

Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress. Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the Declaration of Independence. Franklin had gone to Boston carrying all his clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm. He invented electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared, "A horse divided against itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead.

George Washington married Martha Curtis and in due time became the Father of Our Country. Then the Constitution of the united States was adopted to secure domestic hostility. Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the right to keep bare arms.

Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent. Lincoln's mother died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his own hands. When Lincoln was president, he wore only a tall silk hat. He said, in onion there is strength". Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address while traveling from Washington to Gettysburg on the back of an envelope. He also freed the slaves by signing the Emasculation Proclamation, and the Fourteenth Amendment gave the ex-negroes citizenship. But the Clue Clux Clan would torcher and lynch the ex-Negroes and other innocent victims. It claimed it represented law and odor. On the night of April 14, 1865, Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by one of the actors in a moving picture show. The believed assinator was John Wilkes Booth, a supposedly insane actor. This ruined Booth's career.

Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltare invented electricity and also wrote a book called "Candy". Gravity was invented by Issac Walton. It is chiefly noticeable in the Autumn, when the apples are flaling off the trees.

Bach was the most famous composer in the world, and so was Handel. Handel was half German, half Italian and half English. He was very large. Bach died from 1750 to the present. Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for this.

France was in a very serious state. The French Revolution was accomplished before it happened. The Marseillaise was the theme song of the French Revolution, and it catapulted into Napoleon. During the Napoleonic Wars, the crowned heads of Europe were trembling in their shoes. Then the Spanish gorrilas came down from the hills and nipped at Napoleon's flanks. Napoleon became ill with bladder problems and was very tense and unrestrained. He wanted an heir to inheret his power, but since Josephine was a baroness, she couldn't bear him any children.

The sun never set on the British Empire because the British Empire is in the East and the sun sets in the West. Queen Victoria was the longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. Her reclining years and finally the end of her life were exemplatory of a great personality. Her death was the final event which ended her reign.

The nineteenth century was a time of many great inventions and thoughts. The invention of the steamboat caused a network of rivers to spring up. Cyrus McCormick invented the McCormick Raper, which did the work of a hundred men. Samuel Morse invented a code for telepathy. Louis Pastuer discovered a cure for rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturailst who wrote the "Organ of the Species". Madman Curie discovered radium. And Karl Marx became one of the Marx Brothers.

The First World War, cause by the assignation of the Arch-Duck by a surf, ushered in a new error in the anals of human history.

quote:

Originally posted by wv_engineer:

quote:

Is this teacher instructing 3rd grade English and History? That's about the only way I could justify answers such as those ever being spoken/written.

Oh I with that was the case. This teacher is an instructor of English 102 and History 2??. that came from a SOPHOMORE level class at a major university.

This is where the idea of college edication for all has gotten us. you have people who never should have graduated middle school attending college.

I'm not sure what is more sickening. That their schools failed them so badly or that college take these kids in and steel their money when they have nowhere near the ability to pass and get a degree.

To quote Ferris Bueller's Day Off, "I weep for the future."

Although the “grammer” spelling was no doubt more related to an embarrassing lack of typing skills, the result is the same. Which brings up another pet peeve: not proof reading what you write. You probably see this in e-mails everyday. On the other hand, have you noticed that people in careers that are technically oriented tend to have okay grammar but poor spelling? Perhaps it is the age at which you learn grammar vs. the age at which your vocabulary increases. Then spelling, which violates its own rules much more than grammar, is incompatible with a logical thinking process.

Bad grammar and spelling by engineers seems to be a bit of a badge of honor among some.

I've come across this attitude all too frequently over the years, especially among the recent grads. They'll even proudly tell you they focused on the "important stuff (science and math)" and ignored the "fluff (English, history, art, etc.)".

Of course, they don't realize they've crippled their advancement opportunities because no one can understand their reports or emails, but if they're really smart, they figure this out and correct their shortcomings.

quote:

Although the “grammer” spelling was no doubt more related to an embarrassing lack of typing skills

Once is a typo, multiple times as in the OP and the subject line is not just a typo. It is bad grammar.

quote:

Originally posted by caitekins:
When I was going through the Single Subject English Credential program in California, an instructer I had several times informed us that all grammar is intended and supposed to be learned by the 8th grade! The remainder years are supposed to be about reviewing and perfecting.

Then why don't they review and perfect it instead of gaffing about forcing kids to be able to quote the entire works of William Shakespear? When you read a terrible post or job application, you can tell the person has learned nothing...you can't tell if s/he knows Shakespear. Which is more important?

quote:

Originally posted by Alanna:
LOL, wv

My six year old (first grader) is already familiar with homonyms, antonyms, synonyms... So I would expect nothing less from an eighth grader.

Your younger one is very clearly spoken too! I had no trouble understanding her. Granted, I'm used to 5 year olds learning English for their first time!

quote:

Originally posted by Lokifan:
Bad grammar and spelling by engineers seems to be a bit of a badge of honor among some.

Reminds me of the slogans on the hoodies some engineering students wear here in NUIG:
"I'm an engineure
enginear
engeneer
screw it, I'm good at maths."

quote:

Originally posted by Lokifan:
Bad grammar and spelling by engineers seems to be a bit of a badge of honor among some.

I've come across this attitude all too frequently over the years, especially among the recent grads. They'll even proudly tell you they focused on the "important stuff (science and math)" and ignored the "fluff (English, history, art, etc.)"

Being surrounded by engineers (almost literally ), I'd have to say that this couldn't be further from the truth for the ones that I know (and I've known more of the recent grads than I have of the elders).

The engineers that I know take pride in their ability to communicate, whether it's verbal or written. Sure, they agree that there are more "important stuff (science and math)" than English, art, history, etc. However, I believe that their jabs at "English" are not in reference to the more professional aspects of it (such as communicating / grammar / spelling / etc) so much as they are cheap shots at poetry, novels, writing plays... or, as Cijay mentioned, meomorizing Shakespeare quotes.

PS: Thanks for the compliment on my little gal, Cijay!

The following was posted in the movie boards a few minutes ago. I thought I would share it with you all on this thread.


"BigHughes
Junior Member

Registered: 11-07-09 Posted 11-07-09 01:02 PM

hay guys hears 1 u will rillllly have fun with thers a seen in the movie wher the joker exscaps jall by calling a cell phone that was put in a mans stomc atacherd to a boom can some 1 rilly serve a complax thing like that and wuld the boom rilly go off and wuld u be abel to see the cell light up under his skin???"

A fellow English teacher and I have both been knocked by our department chair for doing direct instruction in grammar. My lesson was on pronoun-antecedent agreement, and the other teacher's lesson was on proper verb usage (I believe). I was told that it didn't seem my students were really "engaged" in the grammar lesson (um, is anyone, really?), and I should just work grammar in here and there instead of spending 15-20 minutes at the beginning of the period going over it carefully. The other teacher was told that the verb usage lesson was too "remedial"--except her kids had failed a test on that very material previously, which is what led to her lesson. It seems as though many people fail to value grammar.

quote:

Originally posted by Lokifan:
Bad grammar and spelling by engineers seems to be a bit of a badge of honor among some.

I've come across this attitude all too frequently over the years, especially among the recent grads. They'll even proudly tell you they focused on the "important stuff (science and math)" and ignored the "fluff (English, history, art, etc.)".

Of course, they don't realize they've crippled their advancement opportunities because no one can understand their reports or emails, but if they're really smart, they figure this out and correct their shortcomings.

Nope. i don't come across it oft10. Most of teh engineers i know hav figured out how too use spellcheck.

quote:

The engineers that I know take pride in their ability to communicate, whether it's verbal or written. Sure, they agree that there are more "important stuff (science and math)" than English, art, history, etc. However, I believe that their jabs at "English" are not in reference to the more professional aspects of it (such as communicating / grammar / spelling / etc) so much as they are cheap shots at poetry, novels, writing plays... or, as Cijay mentioned, meomorizing Shakespeare quotes.

I suspect that's closer ot the truth. Although, I doubt most take pride in the ability to communicate. It's more of just a necessary evil that can be made fun of.


Caitekins: Why should we value something like that?

I live and work in Silicon Valley. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an engineer.

There are exceptions to every rule. Personally, I mentored and managed enough engineers to become a proofreading resource for many of them, and to form my opinons based on the thousands of emails and reports read.

Some of it was due to ESL issues, but native speakers were frequently as bad or worse.

Most of them simply didn't care, and couldn't understand why it was a "big deal" until I explained how it would affect their annual review.

No, I'm not a frustrated English teacher in disguise; it's just a matter of presenting a professional face to the customer. When you realize a customer can't understand an email from your team for a nontechnical reason, it's bad.

Misspellings in an age of spell checkers should be very rare, but somehow they abound, and it's frequently due to laziness.

And yes, Shakespeare was always the first target for sneering. But too many swallow the "733t" speak Kool-aid, and think it's somehow really sophisticated to mangle the language. Then there are the ones that never learned to spell, and believe rules are silly conventions, so they think it's okay to spell everything fonetkly.

One of the best approaches to getting a software engineer to use better English is to point out that you can "parse" a sentence, and point out the structure. This seems to click, and their style improves dramatically.

I've heard it argued that emoticons became popular because of poor communication skills; that's why they are more popular with the young. They don't know how to communicate a point without throwing them in. I know some folks who simply refuse to use them, but then, they don't need them. I tend to only use them on this forum, myself.

What I found interesting is that I just saw an email from a friend in marketing, who bemoaned the fact that a vendor just supplied an expensive piece of supposedly camera ready art--and it's full of misspellings. This, from people whose careers are supposed to be communication.

Well, since they're on deadline, there goes their weekend!

Holy cow, three homonyms in a sentence, all used correctly! I win!

quote:

Originally posted by Lokifan:

Some of it was due to ESL issues, but native speakers were frequently as bad or worse.

I can tell the difference in writing skills of someone that is...well, stupid, lazy, whatever you wish to call it, versus someone whose primary language is not English. They seem to use a different cadence in writing. It will be correct, but seem a bit unnatural.

And I too am not some closet English teacher. I'm not one of those "English Nazis" that feel compelled to correct people's speech or writing (unless asked) or if someone starts complaining about the "grammer" of others. Hypocrites of all flavors must be put in their place!

quote:

...an email from a friend in marketing...

Traitor!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Qwerty.55:

quote:

...an email from a friend in marketing...

Traitor!!!

Ok, you caught me, I lied. It wasn't so much a friend as an in-law.

Or, probably more accurate yet, an outlaw.