Is it possible that popular thought concerning the construct of ancient literature consisted of the concept of written language as being a profane version of a sacred reality? And that it was often accepted that it would of necessity employ the allegorical method of the absurd in order to express what was seen as abstract spiritual truths?
jim, isn't transfer of knowlege based on its universality of understanding for acceptance. If everything had to be encrypted in code, how would any useful knowlege get out to the masses. I will use the dollar bill as an example of a piece of paper with a huge depository of masonic arcana depicted on it. Only a mason would understand all the hidden superstitions it conveyed, or folk like me who are amazed how modern day folk still practice witchcraft, voodoo, or whatever masons are into these days.
What would the average peasant in any 3rd world country know of or much care about these superstitions when all they want to do is earn that piece of paper to buy food. All that fancy art work lost its message to these folk. I know that is not why a dollar bill circulates to these countries, to illumunate them to its mysteries blah, blah. According to poster its these exposures that helps spread the message thru the medium subliminally, ala Marshall Mcluhan who saw that as medias role in society.
ahamagi and I met on other forums, aha don't be upset, its not worth the ulcers. We are consistent, we have divergent opinions about everthing. This topic is the start of another juicy discussion if others dare to jump in.
Aha, be so kind, re-phrase your query so that the rest of the profane and mundane can either pull you out from warp 4, aether zone, or explain how they get in that zone with you. I can't find the entrance into the never-never land you are constructing.
Hi Jake, do you think Dr. Charlesworth may have problems understanding my question? I tried to be clear and concise, but i'll give the rephrasing of it a shot if you think it will help.
Considering the fact that ancient hellenistic people did not have modern phrases to describe or explain abstract concepts of thought, i was wondering, 1. how prevalent in those times was the notion that the written word was at best a profane expression of a more sacred reality* and if prevalent, 2. how accepted may it have been that stories would naturally assume the form of legend, allegory, symbolism and parables in their telling for the purpose of expressing deep philosophical abstractions or to simply give a story more mass appeal and credibility among the masses?** And, 3. Is it possible that the authors of these stories would make assumptions of literary licence being more concerned that the spirit or message of the story be conveyed rather than with historical accuracy and with the understanding that some people would take them literally?
*Example: Paul's expose as to the spirit of the law in comparison to the letter of the law.
**Example: Alexander the Great said to be the son of god and born of a virgin < and numerous other popular and legendary stories of the time about emporers and kings associated with miracles or miraculous "signs and wonders," in order to gain popular legitamacy.
by the way jake your analogy of the dollar bill is specious in that people don't read stories or books in order to buy food. And i'm not suggesting subliminal reception in the least. But rather an intricate telling or conveying of a message that the reader must excercise his intellect and his emotions (brain and heart) to fully comprehend, a seek and ye shall find kind of thing. Oh and don't worry about me getting ulcers by the way, you do not bother me in the least, i rather like you actually and enjoy talking to you.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: ahamagi,
Jim, I hope you are following this erudite exchange of wisdom. I hope I did not insult your intelligence by meaning you were the profane and mundane who needed help finding aha's neverland. Somebody came, left a terse message, to whom its for is up for grabs. I assumed aha knew the difference between the profane and mundane and those who follow his original thread. The next poster to come along realized he was out of his depth. I jumped in to keep aha from getting lonely.
Aha you made a pretty good effort at being a little less obtuse. All it needs now is the kind of polishing a student sitting in Jim's classroom would submit. Maybe you should ask Jim to grade you like he would college students. Aha, did you see the avalanche of questions re-hashing what our previous threads rehashed? This Cameron dog and pony show is backfiring big time. Rabbinate is ready to shut it down to prevent a resurgence of Jews for Jesus over there. Israel already has its own brand of Messianic fervor going on. I foresee portents of this scenario you are developing on these threads having relevance in Israel in a very near future. The religious language and linguistic scene are not the same in Israel according to rabbi's I speak to. Maybe it would help to shunt your direction from what happened 2,000 years ago to today's Israel, 'cuz that will be the frame of reference I will address my responses to you and Jim in regards to how this methodology hasn't varied that much in Israel. Look at the problems Madonna ran into in Israel with her take on Kaballah.
No Jake i haven't really pursued the threads much more, i was a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume. Maybe you could suggest some that i might find interesting? And unfortunately grades mean nothing to me, I'm afraid I'm just a layperson with questions, lol, but that was funny. I wasn't lonely, I really was just hoping for a response from Dr. Charlesworth, actually I didn't expect anyone to respond besides him. you were, however, a pleasant surprise. I'm not sure what you're talking about concerning the rabbinate, but that's okay...maybe if you give me the suggestion of threads I'll understand what you mean? Also don't understand what you're talking about someone seeing I was out of my depth? I'm pretty sure I understand my question unless you're talking about something else.
Aha, I apologize for not being clearer. You are not out of your depth, I made reference to the next poster who realized that. A good start point is to search for your or my threads. I do that with you so I know what topics you are following. There is a red hot topic I post to if the NT is believable on Charlesworth forum. Poor lilgal, she is really getting pounded on.
I made the analogy to Madonna in the hopes folk who read National Enquirer for all their indepth knowlege of the world may want to ask a relevant question or 2. If you go back 2,000 years you are stepping on sensitive toes of the gnostic crowd, they claim that as their turf to be defended to their last breath. Somehow those folk got trapped in that time warp and never left it. They live, eat, breathe the primordial ooze of that time, it recharges their batteries and gets their mojo going again.
In reference to working class folk of today to folk who could read or write 2,000 years ago, do you observe the manner in which posters to these threads utilize what passes for the english language? Folk who could write relied on pictographs like in Egypt, since they knew abstract concepts are the arena of priest class, how they earn their living instead of picking cotton. Check out Mike Tsarion's website if you want a good laugh. He actually deals with your topic, but does it in a manner that will make you day.
The average poster to these threads must live next door to Michael Jackson's neverland, that was my inside joke to you about never-neverland, 'cuz they think they are here to do some verbal moon walking, you know the deal, shuffling their feet like they are going somewhere and really getting nowhere, but it is the illusion that counts, if you get my drift. Now that I did what I could to get the profane and mundane to come in and razzle-dazzle us with their brilliance, its just a matter of time the warp 4 crowd will show up.
jake: You are a treasure! I just love reading your posts. It makes up for all the verbal lashings, crowning with crapola, and crucifixion on the stake of stagnation. The blind are always trying to lead those who can see. I think by so doing they can see too so they push instead of lead. You know what they say, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." In this case, we're trying to get the asses to taste of the Living Water. I know it's not only a tough battle, it's probably a losing one. But, hey, I'm doing my best and that's all that God or man can ask of me (that's the first law of morality. One can only assume that "some" nameless people have an identifiable moral code...probably somewhat akin to "Do to others what you think they are doing to you." Or as we currently interpret it in modern day lingo: get them before they get you. If they honestly believe that they can damage MY sword and my shield, I have news for them. I would have to say to them, "Weep not for me oh Daughters of Jerusalem, weep for yourselves..." They can verbally squirm and mentally pounce from inanity to inanity, they are not going to escape the All-seeing Eye of God. Maybe that's why that symbol is over the cave where everyone who enters will see it. God is watching you! They may fool some of the people some of the time but they're not going to fool God any time. Don't worry, I've seen these cases before - I was married to one such "agnostic." Where once he told my daughter that Jesus is a myth, he now takes her to church every week and has been seen taking Holy Communion. <LOL> No, I haven't said, "I told you so." Rather I say, "Jesus told you so." Keep up the good work - I hear ya! Are we not shining with victory by mere comparison? Onward Christian soldiers...
We should be careful about thinking we see and never just assume that we've arrived, don't you think?
Joh 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
"The company of those who who seek after truth is to be infinitely preferred to those who've found it." - Unknown.
Aha, did I wake you up? sorry 'bout that. Lilgal its nice to see you survived your latest round of being used as a punching bag. I am taking my lumps, as well but the worst come from moderators heading me off at the pass. I couldn't resist the temptation when I unloaded on the NT believable thread. Aha should mosey into that mine field and get his baptism of fire, its that lethal. The gnostics are unloading both barrels at the same time, just ask Lilgal what she experienced. She treads so lightly none of these booby traps are gonna make her day sour. I decided to raise the temperature in there a bit, by comparing the gnostic shtick to obligate parasitic cancer. I don't know if Lilgal read that one yet.
Now, back to the topic at hand. Its nice to see familiar folks making light banter instead of brandishing battle axes to crack open some stale bagels. I think a little lightening up may attract some of the timid crowd to have a good laugh before we go into probity mode.
Aha, did you check out Michael Tsarion yet? He is one of those warp 4 dudes who thinks he owns the gnostic movement, but I think he confused it with his bowels rumbling like a bolt of Thor's thunder. You brought up Athens back then, and the thought hit me of the Sophists of that day who thought they cornered the market on search for wisdom, they must have annoyed a rival group who addressed their spin as being sophomoric, what gnostics call wise fools, I call sophisticated morons which describe the gnostic crowd. My dollar bill scenario was based on the only possible exposure working class folk got to seeing art work on a piece of paper in wide circulation in the same ethnic group that conveyed these masonic gnostic inspired hidden messages meant to be decoded for the initiated. The same applies today, its the rare amareekin who can decode a textbook worth of this arcana after having handled these dollars their entire life, you don't have to go back to antiquity to deal with the same phenomenon.
I will put it like this, how much of a furor was initiated when the gnostic crowd took da vinci's erroneously depicted last supper and spun tons of gnostic arcana from it in the Dan Brown hype. As lilgal will tell you, only men gather at these passover meals and eat standing up ready to bolt out the door at the sound of a shofar. Since da vinci the gnostic wanted to overload this painting with gnostic arcana, working class folk see a picture of a meal and nothing more. A gnostic has a textbook staring him in the face.
aha, sorry I woke you up and put you on the firing line so early in the day, I wrote a post only a few minutes before starting this one remarking a how many of them are censored. I got hit again. Lilgal, nice to see you survived the latest round of salvo's on the NT Believable threads. Aha, be so kind, go to that topic read thru it,and get back to ligal and me here with your take on it.
Now back to this topic. You mentioned Athens back then, and that triggered a memory pathway for me. It deals with Sophists then who thought they cornered the search for wisdom market. That must have annoyed a rival group who described them as being sophomoric, the gnostics call wise fools, I call them sophisticated morons, just the gnostics are. I used my dollar bill scenario as a means of exposing working class folk in the same ethnic group to art work on a piece of paper in mass circulation that only folk initiated in the arcana in that art work on that piece of paper, you don't have to go back to Athens, just look at the amareekin working class and survey them if they grasp all that arcana even though they have seen it their entire life.
Then assess the impact of the gnostc hype surrrounding da vinci's erroneously depicted last supper. Only men were at these meals who stood up to eat, ready to bolt out the door at the sound of a shofar. Since da vinci was a gnostic he dumped in tons of gnostic arcana in that painting the average working man sees as depicting a meal, a gnostic sees a textbook staring him the face
aha, sorry to steal your thunder, no I'm not making a reference to those moving moments in life of Michael Tsarion as I mentioned earlier. I came across a reply from lilgal on a topic initiated by vithant on this forum, she responded to an observation I made on that thread, It would be interesting to get your feedback on it. It actually ties in with this thread, when you look for spread of arcana and its interp.
do you think Dr. Charlesworth may have problems understanding my question? I tried to be clear and concise, but i'll give the rephrasing of it a shot if you think it will help.
