Why should anyone believe that the Gospel account takes presedence?
There are no complete Gospels until more than 300 years after the birth of Jesus and we have seen early Christians falsified material such as "Histories" by Herodotus, Josephus and many others.
For what reason should we accept the Biblical account which has no support when the discovery alligns with the material from the Gnostics?
Mark's gospel was written 50 years or so after the Resurrection. The other Synoptic Gospels were based on his. They give us not only one, but four different accounts, of the life and mission of Jesus Christ. Therefore, they paint far more accurate a "picture" of Him than any "bones" or "dust" or "remains" which may well be attributed relics sold as indulgences by the early Church. Sales of "relics" were quite popular in Medieval times in much the same way that sales of sensationalized fictions are so prevalent today. Only now it isn't the Church or its clerics that are benefitting from them, it's the "enemy." Such is the nature of sin is it not? As for the Gospels and their accuracy, I would certainly place more faith in them for insight on the "historical Jesus" than I would on some Hollywood hellions' latest claims to fame - i.e. the purveying of ossuaries as the final resting place of the Founder of Christianity. Check the historians of Biblical times who bear out the physical existence of Jesus et al as well as accounts of His miracles, not the least of which was raising people (Lazarus as well as Himself) from the dead. You may wish to compare the gospel accounts as we Biblical students do by using a book called "The Synoptic Gospels." It has some very interesting revelations, not the least of which is the fact that the gospel writers were each writing for a different audience and hence were wont to address the needs/questions of various factions of the societies and cultures present at that time in history. Check the writings of St. Paul as well. Once a persecutor of Christians, he miraculously became one of Christianity's greatest writers. As Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them." Just what are the fruits of this latest "discovery?" I'd say that the fruits of Sacred Scripture are far more complelling and transformative. After all, the Bible is still Number One on the best-seller list! That's not about to change regardless of the number of skeptics who know little or nothing about it except to criticize it - and not even with sufficient knowledge upon which to base a sound conclusion. Unless you've taken the time to study each and every pericope therein, don't criticize it to those who have.
Sorry - I didn't address gnosticism - a heresy. It was with good reason that the Church decided NOT to include the Gnostic gospels. Gnosticism glorifies the mind over the spirit. The residence of faith is in the heart, not in the mind. In many Eastern religions the mind becomes more of a distraction than an attribute to higher consciousness. The mind must first be stilled before on can "center" and become part of the "whole." It was thought that Jesus may have studied with the Essenes in the desert before His public ministry. Judging from what Scripture reveals to us about Him, it is unlikely that he put "mind" over matter but rather that He put God's Will over man's mind to confuse that Will. Therefore, Gnosticism was and is heretical because it contradicts the very heart of Christianity - that faith is borne in the heart not in the mouth, the mind's tool. Heros don't act with their minds or their mouths but with their hearts. That is the way of Christ and His followers. You may wish to read about St. Augustine who fought the Gnostic heresy having once been a member of the Gnostics. He writes very powerfully against it and quite authoritatively. His writings earned him the title of Doctor of the Church. That's much more impressive to Christians than is some Gnostic who thinks with and acts from his "mind." Check out psychological references to "monky mind." The mind will play tricks on you but your "gut feeling" won't and my gut feeling is that you venerate thought and denigrate truth.
lingal, well said. I couldn't add anything more to the mystical aspect, I can add to the survival of Christianity aspect. It seems this thread started out addressing a question to a 'biblic scholar' and I will pick up on that thread. I read the threads on all the other posts addressed to other 'biblic experts' and hoped to come across survival of Christianity from a daily reality viewpoint. From the jump jewish converts to Christianity were persecuted by pharasaical rabbis who were the target for anger of Jesus. Jesus' essential message is love, He confronted the rabbi's with this and admonished them for holding on to their man-made additions to Torah. Jesus called these rabbi's spawn of satan, and for this he was killed, He hurt their feelings, poor babies. They did not know how to lick their wounds, pick up their marbles from the sandbox and call it a day. The rest is history. These persecuted converts lived in hiding, it was am underground Church kept alive by word of mouth testimony and letters, not just any letters but Epistles. In Rome they hid in catacombs which were previously used for burials. This state of affairs went on til Emperor Constantine elevated the Churchs's status due to his own mother's conversion. It amazes me what folk today have for reality testing functions in their brain. Just look at what happened in Ireland when England attempted to stamp out Catholicism for 800 years up to 1920's time period, and still ongoing in N.Ireland. Look at the East European countries behind Iron Curtain keeping their religion alive despite relentless persecution.
Demand for DVD's with instant replay of events of 2,000 years ago is what I glean in some threads, you know them, the I want proof I can live with crowd. Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe, to folk who saw Him in action and did not believe. If folk standing next to Jesus watching Him do a miracle and walk away not believing, today, even with an instant DVD replay of these 2,000 year old events will not sway a skeptic. So the phony mantra of I want proof is just gnostic rantings. I use gnostic in the sense these folk compartmentalize Jesus according to their personal belief system and that Jesus has to conform to the gnostic take on things.
This hubris is the worst violation of 1st Commandment which forbids folk from telling God what to do or setting limits on what God is allowed to do.
Personally I prefer the Ante Nicene Fathers when it comes to the believability of the NT along with finds from the area and time.
I do not appreciate you belittling others as if they know nothing about the Ancient Near East. Your allegations about when the Gospels are written have no evidence to support it. The fact remains; there is no complete Gospel until more than 300 years after the death of Jesus and saying the current gospels come from those earlier ones you mentioned is not supported by the remnants discovered.
When it comes to Paul we see Irenaeus support the Gnostic Paul in Adversus Heresies Book 2 Ch. XXX 7, this brings us to the question of whether Irenaeus refuted one Gnostic sect while supporting another.
As I mentioned Eusebius, Herodotus, Josephus and others provide us with enough evidence of falsification of early material to make us doubt if any of it is true.
lingal, well done, well said. To poster gnosis seeker, don't you find it rather bizarre that Cameron's find is hyped to exactly toe the gnostic line? I mean the coincidence, after 20 years of dreaming up some sort of counter balance to Mel Gibson's Passion Movie, to suddenly 'discover' the missing gnostic link. What skeptics in general demand is proof that meets their agenda. If a DVD with instant replay of 2,000 years ago Crucifixion turns up, guess what, it won't be accepted as proof, 'cuz it don't support the gnostic take on it. Early Christians were persecuted, in Rome thrown to the lions. They kept their faith alive thru a underground Church by word of mouth witnessing and letters, but not just any kind of letters but Epistles. Folk today who have never experienced what Palestinians or Iraqi folk do can never imagine what Ireland went thru for 800 years of persecution by the English or East Europeans behind Iron Curtain. Jesus said blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe to folk who were watching Him perform miracles before their eyes and walked away still not believeing.
In the near future a prophecy made by St. Paul and found in Book of Revelations talks about a great apostasy where Christians will lose their faith as a result of actions of antichrist and his 666 thing. I read posts by believers I hope will be able to withstand this coming apostasy. Satan has been given the privilege of being allowed to roam free since the fall of man. Jesus said His Church will last til the end of times and tyhe gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Cameron's scam and those who support his gnostic agenda are trying to prevail, but won't succeed
If the Gospels were really written that late, how do you explain their intimate acquaintance with and accurate description of buildings, geography, structures, practices and clothes which all but disappeared after the Jewish War of A.D. 70? How do you explain that the Gospel of John refers to a building in the Temple in the present tense, that exists "to this day", but which did not after 70?
I have not seen the show yet so I don’t know whether it leans toward the Gnostics. I knew about the connection in 1996 when I learned about the find. As to the persecution of the Christians or Gnostics it did not amount to a hill of beans compared with the torture, slaughter and persecutions done by the Christians; especially after Pope Innocent and his edict of 1208.
The prophesy of St. Paul the Gnostic does not belong somewhere that facts are discussed; Paul was quite possibly Gnostic so that in itself is absurd. Secondly there are no biblical prophesies which have ever come true so why would anyone take this seriously?
All you are relating is superstition and delusions; there is nothing real when it comes to material such as Revelations; it is just as absurd as Daniel.
Yes, I agree that the latest "find" is not-so-coincidentally aligned with the gnostics. Satan has been trying to undermine the Children of God since his fall from grace. He never did want to serve God's children. I'm certain we have a "second coming" in the not-too-distant future. All things are pointing towards it. As Scripture reminds us, "all things will pass away but God's word will not pass away." Evil does not prevail; it can't. There will always be a balancing back to the good. One thing I've learned is that God turns those negatives into positives every time. The beauty of Christianity is that it is am EMpowering religion, not an OVERpowering one. Remember: God is love and love conquers all things and we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Let the gnostics have a field day with that Truth!
To Gnosisquest2: I do not belittle those who know little of Eastern religious thought. My suggestions is that they learn more about it because it profoundly influenced Jesus, the subject of this discussion. Itis always best to "know the enemy" in order to found one's opinions upon solid ground. If one grounds one's opinions upon the Gnostic Gospels, one is not on a firm footing theologically or historically. They are replete with innacuracies. That has been proven time and again by many Doctos of the Church who have made it their life's work to study such heresies. I refer you to St. Augustine for one. Once again, I suggest you open your mind and not your mouth, before seeking to illuminate someone who has studied with a man who wrote for the esteemed Jerome Biblical Commentary and who has more than a mere passing knowledge of Sacred Scripture. I do not perceive this as being anything more than a discussion about the discovery of a tomb that was discovered in the 80's and is only now, post-DaVinci Code, being purported to be the burial tomb of Jesus - and His family. This will never be proven without the Jesus' DNA and needless to say not even the great James Cameron can produce that. Unlike the sunken Titanic, the remains of Jesus were and are nowhere to be found on earth. If they were, you may be certain the Romans would have discovered them long ago. This century has nothing to gain or lose from such a finding. We don't have any upstart religions vying with any Roman Emperors for world domination. As it stands, the Catholic Church managed to best the Roman Empire with its very own little Empire right in the heart of the Eternal City. Need I say more? Where are the emperors and Roman legions now? Jesus is still firmly entrenched upon His throne, not having budged in some 2,000+ years. I'd say He's managed to fulfill His prophecy and many other Biblical prophecies as well. How have the gnostics held up all these years? They're still thinking while Christians are still believing. Hmmmm, there must be something to the Biblical prophecy that "Love conquers all things" eh?
To Ras: Better read your Bible instead of those Gnostic Gospels when it comes to prophecy fulfillment. Jeremiah predicted the rise and fall of Babylon - it happened. Daniel's prophecies also came true. And don't forget Noah and the flood! The BAR (Biblical Archaeological Review) has found many historical evidences to support the Bible. What did the people do to the prophets? They killed the messengers but they cannot succeed in killing the One who sent them. The Old Testament is replete with stories of God's Divine Justice upon those who chose not to listen to His prophets. No historical foundation you say? I beg to differ with you and so does history and Sacred Scripture. Gnosticism is based on using the power of the mind to over-power others with unfounded confusion. You know it's the old "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS..." Christianity on the other hand, Empowers not by controlling the midns of others but by empowering their souls. The former steals free will, the latter strengthens it. We do have FREE will and we alone bear responsibility for the choices we make with it. I'd rather err on the side of spirit than on the side of the senses. We are "not of this world" whereas the gnostics choose to be solely of this world. I don't condemn the gnostics for their ignorance of the spiritual, I suggest that they try it - they might like it.
Lingal May I ask what your credentials are; what you are spouting is sheer nonsense; I'm not interested in discussing with people who also are not well versed in the material from ancient research. There is not a researcher which does not admit Daniel depicts the battle between the Babylonian moon God Nanna and Marduk. It was written in 167 BCE and the last kingdom was to be the Greek.
There is not an expert that does not know that the Boat depicted to float Ziusudra on the tsunami would have shattered into unrecognizable slivers if the entire earth was covered.
There is also not a person versed in the Gnostics who do not know that it was the spiritual they said they were.
Just because millions of Gnostics were murdered throughout the history of Christianity until well into the seventeenth century don't mislead people it is not ethical!
Hey gnosis I think you missed the essence of what lingal is consistent with, after a re-read of his posts you will glean what he means. You haven't addressed any of my points, maybe they are too obtuse for you to grasp. I will modify my paradigm and hone in the target at the same time. If you recall there was a rebellion in the heavens and satan got kicked out for his efforts. He was given free reign to roam earth after fall of man he instigated. Since satan has a headstart as to insider knowlege he can set up all sorts of scenarios long before their mirror situation will appear. For instance the gnostic crowd point fingers at all the coincidences that occur 400-500 years before Christ came on the scene and say its all been done and recorded before. Who did all that timely 'doing' so diligently recorded by ther gnostics? Everybody hops over satan like he don't exist, yet he is one clever devil. He knows he can set his various spins in action long before the key actors satan is aiming for show up for their earthly role in eternal scheme of things. I hear you thinking a-ha so God and satan are in cahoots to baffle mankind. Remember what I said, satan was allowed to tempt man on earth until his alloted time on earth is used up. Satan has only 1 mission, drag as many hapless souls God created to share his eternal misery. In a way its a very childish selfish reaction on the part of satan to not want to suffer alone for company , he wants company, lots of it. Another point you miss is, Jesus said His church will last til the end of time and the gates of hell shall ot prevail against it. In other postings I put out Cameron and his hype legions are trying to prevail and won't succeed just like all the hype around Dan Browns da vinci code didn't succeed. The Church is still here.
System administrators advise that trigger words are not permitted. I assume that any reference to my religious affiliations, education, degrees or studies with noted Scripture scholars is not permissable on this forum. My question is - why not? does the enemy fear that the truth will put them in a worse light than they have already plunged themselves? Ignorance must be bliss...
Gnossis - here come the credentials BA summa cum laude - Religious Studies Studies at Seminary with world-reknown Catholic theologians One of the first women appointed as an Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister Catechetical Director/Teacher 30+ years Lector - reading Scripture as Mass helped redraft Catholic catechism Speaker/lecturer at Religious seminars working on Masters in Theology Mystic published free-lance writer/author What are YOUR credentials?
Sorry Gnossis - I tried to post my "credentials" - granted the list is long - and somewhat impressive since I've been involved in theology and religious studies for the better part of my 64 years, but the administrators keep catching those "trigger words." I suspect they may have something to do with my background in RC scripture studies. Maybe I could send you a copy of my resume through private email? I'm scrupulous about my credibility and am happy that you asked. Thank you.
Hey Jake! Well done! As divinely inspired a piece as any Psalmist could pen! One little tidbit that I picked up in my studies about Satan is that he refused to serve the Children of God. so instead of serving them, it appears that he chose to rob them of their true identity - sons and daughters of the Most High God. You're right - he's one slick little snake. He uses undermining to do it. Guilt and shame are among his bag of tricks. He lures them into sin by offering them things like "all the kingdoms of the world," by tempting God as he demands the His children jump off a cliff and the angels will catch them. Or by another of his temptations to Christ - "turn these stones into bread" to which Christ answered, "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." He failed in his temptations with Jesus just as the purveyors of sin (I like to refer to them as adopted children of Satan) try to undermine, shame, belittle and defame His beloved Children. Throughout salvation history we have ample evidence that God does indeed avenge His own. In each and every instance, it's satan and his band that end up looking foolish, are guilty of sin (blasphemy the worst of all), lose face and credibility not to mention stature, fame and fortune...Just look at how mighty Rome fell and how many other despots met their end when God moved His mighty Hand to avenge His children - it's the meat of Sacred Scripture is it not? I do not fault those who have not seen. I have been blessed - truly blessed - with a miraculous life and very dear "teachers" young and old. My life is hopefully a testament to the living God whose face I see radiating in every Believer, who was and is so fully Present to me in Jesus Christ. His Kingdom shall have no end. Let satan keep spinning the rusty wheels of his mind trying to think up ways to undermine our true identity. In every generation He calls His people to Himself...The proud and haughty will once again fall at His feet. Hopefully those prodigals will return repentent and contrite. Oh, the abundant life they are missing by listening to the voices of the prophets of doom and gloom. Would that they would listen as ardently to the word of God as they do to the words of satan's spawn.
So true! The gnostics are quick to point out how many of THEM lost their lives yet fail to remember the many more Christian martyrs who died for their beliefs. And then they bemoan the fact that they practice a HERESY. About those who witness to miracles and leave unchanged...blasphemous they are who have seen the power of God and won't acknowledge it. And blasphemy is the one sin God will not forgive. To know that God has touched your life and to flatly deny it - yeah, to even go so far as to DISPROVE it - that's got to be sin at its very core. Can these people ever hope to stand in His Presence? Not likely. I used to think that the Second Coming, the Perusia, wouldn't happen in my lifetime - now I'm beginning to have serious doubts. It may well happen in this millenium, perhaps a lot sooner than we think! The presence of angels has been very pronounced for the last several years. They have come to protect and serve the Children of God. It figures that satan is going to put up a fuss because he knows he's headed back to hell. Casting out demons will be the work of every Christian henceforth. Let's begin casting them out right here and now. It was kind of satan to provide us with a few Hollywood Hellions with whom to begin our "cleansing."
Ras: I am surprised that Gnossis hasn't called your credibility into account. As one who has a lengthy list of "credentials" in the Christian religion, I would like to ask you by what authority do you speak and on whose behalf? You speak authoritatively, as if you actually had some sort of documentary evidence to back up your assumptions. However, all I'm reading in your posts is attacks upon the RC church and espousal of certain individuals who "might" have had Gnostic leanings. The Paul you cite in your post - might that be St. Paul, once called Saul and converted miraculously to Christianity by a vision? If he is one and the same Paul, would you please cite references for your allegation. Thank you.
Lingal: The reason I asked why you attempted to belittle those who wrote here was because of your alleged knowledge; not mine.
I first learned of these ossuaries while a member of Orion in 1996 where it was discussed for a time; I did get into a bit of trouble when I wrote ANE demanding the information regarding the ossuaries while the forged Thomas ossuary was pushed.
By the way; did you know there were originally ten ossuaries and the Thomas ossuary was supposedly the tenth?
When it comes to the Gnostics I suggest you get over what Irenaeus allegedly wrote and face such things as the Material by St. Paul.
St. Paul material from Nag Hammadi tells us what the man who learned things it was illegal to see saw; St Irenaeus explained that report in Adversus Heresies 2: XXX; 7.
Your statement the Gnostics were lesser when it came to the spiritual is ludicrous; they sought spiritual awareness, not physical resurrection. Your statements continue to make me surprised, your claims are so at odds with facts that either they are ill based or you are not being honest.
When it comes to Daniel you know those prophesies are just glosses which the church still clings to.
Daniel is a flagrant lie by the Christian community which they have been aware of for centuries.
Nebuchadnezzar is not the Babylonian King in Daniel and even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that Balthazar was the son of Nabonidus.
Nabonidus was the last Babylonian King and religious people with their false pride have been bragging because they said it was only because of the Bible we knew this. The fact is that the only reason society had forgotten it was because the early Church burned all the documents from the ancients. On top of this Daniel gets a lot of things wrong; hardly much to be proud of!
One of the reasons biblical Daniel is so wrong is because it was not written until 167 BCE. No prophesies comes true after 167 BCE and it is pretty well correct before that time.
Balthazar was never a King of Babylon; he acted as a regent while his father went mad as recorded in the Bible and in Babylonian documents. The King which took Babylon was Cyrus the Great, not Darius the Mede as the Bible reports.
The world was supposed to have ended with Antiochus IV.
Marduk was the chief God among the Babylonians; another tale from the same era is the tale about Esther. Marduk is Esther's uncle called Mordekai in the Bible; Esther is none other than the Goddess Ishtar.
Daniel 7:4-8 refers first to the winged lion (Babylon followed by the bear (Medes) and then the four headed leopard (Persians) followed by the dragon (Greeks) Antiochus is the final little horn which comes to power causing God's fierce wrath to rise in fierce judgment in order to end the world as described in 7: 9-14.
There is not much reason to rehash the fraud known as Daniel or would you like to know more?
The Church has known that Daniel is a fraud for centuries yet have not let their sheeplets know; can you respect them after all this?
It is said that crime does not pay; how do you think religious leaders will pay?
Now don't tell me about your wisdom and remember the difference between science and religion is that science alters belief according to evidence while religion alters evidence according to belief; Guess which one is ethical and which one is a betrayal of the human race?
When it came to the alleged expert and the justifications of Jesus I suggest reading "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" BY Abeeg, Flind and Uhlrich which staes that the lack of mention of any person that resembles Jesus by 135 AD is the greates evidence against Christianity of all. The DSS were up to 68 AD; when it comes to the lies about early Christianity such as Josephus; Herodotus, Polycarp and others these were not even addressed.
Would you like to get into P.66 and the misleading information you have been telling people also? The list is endless and here I am treated like a fool because I do not agree with preconceived delusions getting a snowjob instead of answers.
There was much destroyed during the 13th century by a pope and emperor. Everything relating to women being disciples, and gospels written by women and Judas, who may have actually been a brother or step brother of Jesus. One group of monks opposed to the order hid all relevant documents. That is why DaVinci code is accurate Leonardo DaVinci was a member in the organization that was responsible for maintaining these documents. That is why anything in new testament pertaining to "most beloved of Jesus" makes absolutely no sense unless you add Mary Magdalene to it. That is why Mary Magdalene is depicted in the last supper whispering into Jesus ear. Here we are in twenty first century still arguing over trivial garbage.
Da Vinci was a friend of the Medici family from Florence. The pope at the time was a Medici and when Florence was underseige by the French Da Vinci moved to France and lived with the the castle with the queen of France, who was also a Medici. She was the niece of the Pope. I find it very unlikely that someone who was so very close to these people would also be a keeper of secrets that would bring down his friends!
I find it funny when people say the Catholic Church downplayed the role of women and defamed them when they believe Mary (Jesus' Mom) was born without sin and is the Queen of Heaven and co redeemer with Christ (Something that is not found in the NT). They also say that they defame Mary Magdalene by attributing her with the prostitute when the NT says that she was possessed by seven demons. Which is worse Seven Demons or Prostitution?
