I know some one selling rotti pups they are 6 weeks old. he has not had tails docked. He wants new owners to have them done. Isn't it to late or will they still be able to have their tails docked.
Tail docking is done on the third day after puppies are born and before the nerve endings develop. When done then it's an extremely minor procedure and they are healed within a few days.
To have the tails docked now would require, anesthesia and is actually an amputation. The healing time is much longer and there is an increased risk of complications. It's also much more expensive.
It's best to leave the tails as they are now since the irresponsible breeder failed to have them done at the proper time.
If you do decide to go through the extra risk and expense; your vet could probably do it at the time the dog is spayed or neutered. This way you could avoid having to have the pup anesthetized twice.
Thank you very much. That is exactly what i thought. But sometimes no matter how hard you try you just can't tell certain people the right way. Thank you again.
Well, to liven things up a bit, let's discuss the ethicalness of tail docking. While I see it's use regarding true hunting dogs, I do not think it should be done to dogs that have become basically "companion breeds." Tons of ones come to mind. Dobes, Cockers, Boxers, JRTs, etc. They aren't being used in the field anymore (or as guard dogs) where their tails might be injured in the hunt. They are docked for looks only.
I am against docking for many reasons, but one is because I think the tail serves an important purpose for dogs. As with the discussion on dew claws, I'd like you guys to look a the following pictures. They will show you, using my agility dogs, how the tail works as a balancing tool for the dogs.
In the first photo, Aslan is taking a jump. On the take-off side of the jump, his tail is down to help him elevate. See below:
However, when a dog reaches the apex of a jump, the tail goes up to help the dog decend. In the picture below, Aslan has just reached the apex, and is beginning his decent.
This one is of particular interest. Here is Jericho at his first trial. He's up on the dogwalk running along the flat top, yet, his tail is elevated. The reason? He's a green dog and is very unsure of the different equipment. As a precaution, he has his tail up, so that if he loses his balance he can at any instant swing it to help him stabalize. It's one of the ways we see if a dog is becoming comfortable on the equipment. If their tail is raised, we know they are not comfortable. If the tail is lowered, we know they've gained confidence! Pretty cool, huh!
Here is Aslan going up the teeter. Notice his tail is straight out behind him - not held high. He's not a green dog here, and he's confident in the equipment, hence the tail held in a natural running position.
I posted this pic in the discussion of dew claws, but you can also see the tail in action here. In this pic, Aslan is needing to make a pretty sharp right hand turn out of the weaves. See his tail going out to help him do his job? Actually, all the way through the weaves, his tail is whipping in one direction and then the other to help his body make the difficult weaving action. Dogs are so cool!
OK here is the last picture. It sort of repeats the tail in the down position for a takeoff side of jumps, so you've seen an example of this already if you'd like to skip this pic.
I think docking dogs' tails limits their agility ability. My dogs use their tails to their advantage, and not having them on would limit them somewhat.
I'm also against cropping ears. I know the arguement is that dogs will get infection, but most breeds that crop don't have ear flaps so long that they keep mositure in. In fact, the only dogs that maybe SHOULD have it's ears cropped are Beagles and Bassetts!
The reason I'm against ear cropping is a study I read done by a scientist. The study showed that dogs with ears trimmed into that "alert" stance got into fights at an alarming rate when compared to other dogs. Poor dogs. They were probably trying to speak proper dog language, but their ears wouldn't go back into what dogs read as a friendly, submissive greeting! Their ears were permanently placed into an aggressive stance, so they were more often attacked.
Again, same goes for tail. Other dogs don't realize when a friendly dog is wagging it's stump. These dogs were part of the stucy as well.
If I had a choice, I absolutely would want a dog with a tail AND natural ears. I would want to give my dog every chance at success in life as possible. Again, the only exception to this for me would be a true hunting dog. I can see the need for these dogs to get their tails docked.
Basically for the reasons you've already mentioned, but also because the amputation of a tail can cause psychological issues to a dog.
I saw this article in a magazine once. There is more to it, and if I find it I'll type it out. But this is what I found that I typed out a while ago on another forum.
quote:
Pain Factor:
The World Small ANimal Veterinary Association cites the possible formation of painful scar tissue, or neuromas, as one reason that tail docking should be made illegal except for professionally diagnosed theraputic reasons.
Lauri Edge-Huges, a physical therapist and instructor in canine rehabilitation, feels that cropping and docking is unnecessary and potentially harmful. She has a Bachelor of Science degree in Physical Terapy, is certified in canine rehabilitation terapy, and has certification from the acupuncture Foundation of Canada Institute. In her practice at The Canine Fitness Centre in Calgary, she regularlyworks with dogs who suffer from hypersensitivity an dother problems potentially related to their amputated tails, and often theorizes that the problems are related to this scar tissu.
"The contraction or shrinking of the scar may effect a pull on the nerves and hence the dura that surrounds the spinal cord and brain," she says. The dura is a tough membrane, part of the meninges, which encases and protects the brain and spinal cord.
Edge-Hughes once worked with a Rottweiler who routinely chewed at her stump of a tail. The owners were concerned about this cause of the obsessive behaivor and worried that she would hurt herself. When Edge-Hughes sees repeated licking or chewing, or a sudden attacking of a body part, she first investigates a neurological pain as a potential source of the problem. This pain can be compared to the pins-and-needles feeling when your hand or foot "falls asleep."
Edge-Hughes taught the rottweiler’s owners to apply traction to the tail, through gentle pulling, to stretch out the dura. Theoretically, this process could alleviate any compression caused by scar tissue, thereby eliminating the irritation or pain; in actual fact, the traction stopped the dog’s self-destructive behavior.
In addition to the pain related to the actual amputation and resulting scar tissue, there’s a real possibility that dogs experience phantom pain - a phenomenon well-documented with humans who have lost a body part.
"I work with so manydogs that have significant behavioral changes after TTouch on their missing parts," says Debby Potts, Tellington TTouch Instructor and co-owner of The Integrated Animal, located in Portland, Oregon. "I can only imagine that they’re experiencing some kind of phantom pain or discomfort. And this can cause seemingly unrelated problems, including behavioral issues."
Animals hold tension like people do, says Potts. "If you have a stiff neck or pain in a part of your body, does it make you cranky?" Animals are no different from us, she says. In her work on thousands of animals over many years, Potts has found that while lots of dogs may have tension patterns, you’r more likely to see them in dogs who have been docked or cropped.
For example, a Giant Schnauzer was brought to Potts because she was constantly and obsessively whining. Her owners, a husband and wife, could neither find the cause of the problem nore stop the whining. It had become so troublesome that the husband insisted that the dog be re-homed. When potts started to work on the dog, she found a significant amount of tension around the dog’s cropped ears.
After one session, which included a significant amount of physical work on the head and ears, the Schnauzer’s ears actually appeared longer (due to their unusually relaxed state) - so much so that a person very familiar with the dog didn’t recognize her immediatly after the session. More importantly, the whining stopped. Potts suspects that the dog was having the equivalent of tension headaches from all of the tightness around her ears. "That day I think I saved a dog and a marriage, too," laughts Potts.
Artical written by SHannon Wilkinson.
Also, a quick question for Applesmom.....Why is it that the GSP is docked but the English pointer isn't? Is there something different in the hunting methods that is the reason for this? They are both pointers, so they point first, hunter shoots, then they are asked to retrieve the bird correct?
I had a hunting dog one time that the vet sujested that we get her tail docked because the tip was so thin at the end that when she wagged it and hit it on something that it could break the end so in the long run it was better for her to have it done. Keep in mind that this was 20 yrs ago so thinking may have changed on this as well.
Also, a quick question for Applesmom.....Why is it that the GSP is docked but the English pointer isn't? Is there something different in the hunting methods that is the reason for this? They are both pointers, so they point first, hunter shoots, then they are asked to retrieve the bird correct?
First I have to say, never let a GSP owner hear you say the two breeds do the same thing!
It's a rare English pointer that will retrieve in water. Retrieving in general isn't their best feature.
The difference in the tails isn't so much in the hunting methods rather than the type of terrain they were originally hunted in. English Pointers were originally bred to hunt in larger plantation type settings with more tall grass than brush. Originally they were a faster more streamlined dog than the shorthair and covered more open territory in a days hunt.
The GSP was developed in Germany to hunt in heavily wooded areas and thicker brush. Much harder on the tail.
Another reason is that the EP's tail isn't as active when working and it moves in a side to side motion. Perfect for sweeping coffee tables clean. They do have some problems with tail injuries too, but not like the shorthair.
The GSP's tail is only docked to 40 percent, and it's working the whole time they're hunting. And more often than not it revolves in a circular motion. A happy undocked shorthair can leave some serious bruises on human legs with that tail.
Docking tails on pet breeds for cosmetic reasons will soon be outlawed I'm sure. And I'm okay with that. But there are legitimate reasons for tail docking in some breeds other than the hunting dogs. Boxers is one breed that comes to mind with those wiggly rears of theirs.
Until now I've never thought about dogs using their tails as a rudder; but it does make sense! Especially after seeing the photos of Aslan in action.
As far as the ear cropping I honestly don't see any reason for it other than cosmetic. Hunting dogs and many hounds ears are much longer than those of the breeds that are cropped. I can't quite picture a scenthound or hunting dog with cropped ears.
The longer eared dogs do have many more problems with hematomas though and they can be very painful. The majority require surgery to relieve the pain and pressure. They're often left with a cauliflower ear too. That probably played a role in the decision to dock some breeds years ago.
When it comes to tail docking of puppies right after they're born; it honestly isn't that painful. I've held hundreds of puppies while they were being docked. (not all my own) The only thing they cry about is being seperated from mom and the rest of the litter. It only takes a couple of seconds and it's all over and they're back in the nice warm basket ready to nurse again.
Sugarbird, I've never seen a shorthair that had been docked as a puppy with adult tail problems. I do concede that it may be different with the dogs that are docked extremely short. The records were probably kept only on the shorter dockings such as rotties and dobies. not the ones that are left longer like the shorhair, wirehair and Vizla.
The article Sugarbird referenced was from the December 2005 issue of The Whole Dog Journal. I just pulled out my copy and re-read the article. They also mention that dogs with docked tails may be more uncomfortable in a sitting position. I brought this up at a recent obedience class. Someone had a Weimaraner that just did not want to sit. Other than sitting, the dog was very well trained. I couldn't help but wonder if the length of the tail made it hard for her to sit comfortably.
Originally posted by shaiya1: The article Sugarbird referenced was from the December 2005 issue of The Whole Dog Journal. I just pulled out my copy and re-read the article. They also mention that dogs with docked tails may be more uncomfortable in a sitting position. I brought this up at a recent obedience class. Someone had a Weimaraner that just did not want to sit. Other than sitting, the dog was very well trained. I couldn't help but wonder if the length of the tail made it hard for her to sit comfortably.
Since they don't sit on their tails, I wouldn't think that would be the problem. I'd be more concerned about the hips on the weimie.
Here is a picture I scanned from the article. I'm sure there can be other factors as to why the dog with the docked tail is not sitting comfortably, but it seems as though the length of the tail would make it more uncomfortable.
Yep, thats exactly where I got that article Although now I can't find it
Thanks for clearing that up Applesmom. I was talking to a guy down the road from us who actively hunts with his english pointer, both in trials and for sport. I asked why he chose that breed instead of a GSP and he said he liked the appearance better, and mostly, he liked the tail intact. He mentioned nothing about differences in hunting. His pointer does just that, points, he shoots then she goes and finds it and brings it back, so I assumed that the GSP did something similar.
I stared and stared at that photo while doing my best to have a completely open mind while at the same time using common sense.
It helped that one of the examples was a GSP.
Look at the photo of the dog with the long tail. His tail is touching the ground at the same spot as that of the docked gsp. That's just the way dogs hold their tails when they sit.
You see; even though the tail is docked to a shorter length, the dog still has complete control over it. On a GSP the tail is held level or hanging downward when calm and can be held as high as a 12 oclock position when locked on point. When excited they often wag in circles or whip up and down and side to side. Common sense tells me that because of the mobility of the tail they would be no more likely to sit on their tails than an undocked dog of the same breed.
As I said earlier, I would be more inclined to believe that the dogs with extremely short tails might not have the same mobility.
Another consideration is that GSP's often sit that way when they are anticipating an imminent release from the sit positon.
I'm certainly no expert on the topic and haven't done any in depth studies. I'm just pointing out some things that might not have been considered in the study.
It's an interesting photo, but what I would like to see are several dogs of the same breed lined up. Some with tails and some docked, Then, see how many sit "funny" and how many sit comfortably.
One thing I've noticed over time about "The Whole Dog Journal" is that I feel they sometimes make things fit their viewpoint instead of having an open mind. Obviously, I agree with their viewpoint here, but that's just an observation I've had. They seem to make data fit what they believe rather than apply it as a blank slate. Unfortunately, much of science does this. (that ought to get Lizziedog involved!).
I think I'm going to be noticing the sit on docked dogs and tailed dogs for quite some time now!
Much ear cropping and tail docking was originally done on guard breeds (dobes, rotties, etc.) to make them look menacing and to keep the thieves from having "handles" to grab on the dog in an attack. I think we're way past that era!
I agree with Applesmom. I think it's only a matter of time until the USA is crop and dock free, like Europe. I wish the AKC would quit fighiting it, except for true hunting dogs. In my opinion, it's time to let the doggies have the ears and tails they were born with! I think they're much cuter with them.
I'd like to take umbrage with the other statment made in the original question. The breeder is selling his puppies at 6 weeks of age. That's too young!!!! Puppies or kitties for that matter should be with their mothers until they are at least 8 weeks old. And personally I have vowed to never take one less than 10 weeks old. Weaning and placing a puppy or kitty at less than 8 weeks leads to socilization and psychological issues with young animals that never go away. The latest pup that I adopted was 11 weeks old, and training and housebreaking were so easy as to be almost effortless, she was still quite young enough to bond with us immediately, and she was still young enough to be very cute.
Originally posted by texgurl: I'd like to take umbrage with the other statment made in the original question. The breeder is selling his puppies at 6 weeks of age. That's too young!!!! Puppies or kitties for that matter should be with their mothers until they are at least 8 weeks old. And personally I have vowed to never take one less than 10 weeks old. Weaning and placing a puppy or kitty at less than 8 weeks leads to socilization and psychological issues with young animals that never go away. The latest pup that I adopted was 11 weeks old, and training and housebreaking were so easy as to be almost effortless, she was still quite young enough to bond with us immediately, and she was still young enough to be very cute.
You're right of course. I completely overlooked that part in the attempt to answer the tail docking question.
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR! I can understand that for most dogs, tail docking is unnecessary. I also understand that ear cropping is completely useless as far as the dog goes. But I also understand what happens when we give up too much control to "the man".
Today its no tail docking, tomorrow its no duck hunting. After all, subjecting a lab to cold temperatues and freezing rain can be viewed as cruel. Not to mention the close proximity to gun fire.
I feel the best way to reform things is through education and example. Lets keep Uncle Sam as far way from our pets as possible.
Although now I can't find it 
