quote:

Originally posted by lizziedog1:
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
I can understand that for most dogs, tail docking is unnecessary. I also understand that ear cropping is completely useless as far as the dog goes. But I also understand what happens when we give up too much control to "the man".

Today its no tail docking, tomorrow its no duck hunting. After all, subjecting a lab to cold temperatues and freezing rain can be viewed as cruel. Not to mention the close proximity to gun fire.

I feel the best way to reform things is through education and example. Lets keep Uncle Sam as far way from our pets as possible.

Sounds good to me!

Wow i can not believe the responce to this topic. I was so glad to get all the diffrent facts. I raise labs for hunting and never did duw claws after seeing the procedures , didn't care what anyone said it looked painful to me and could not do it to my pups. I could not put a dog through pain for it to look a certain way. If i do decide to get one of these pups i would not get tail docked.And i agree with everyone about pups being to young. I do have one pup that is seven weeks old from my dog sunny and kinda thought it would be good to have a compaion around same age. I know sunny would mother it and teach it along with her pup. By the way they are both doing great pup is hugh and is getting his first shots tomorrow.
Thank you to everyone for your great responces i learned alot.

quote:

I feel the best way to reform things is through education and example. Lets keep Uncle Sam as far way from our pets as possible. Wink

I agree that I don't want Uncle Sam involved (although I've heard that California, I believe, has looked at no cropping/docking legislation). However, I would like the AKC to change their mindset on the issue.

Wow - there are a lot of good viewpoints in the preceding emails to consider. I have a boxer that is 14 weeks old and he has his tail docked and dew calws removed. I've had many dog and this is the first with the dews removed and tail docked.

I love his floppy ears and he is always trying to chase his tail (or what remains of it.) He also has a very high interest in our other dog's tail. I think if you could ask him he would have said leave his tail complete.

I agree that they do not need to be docked and if owners want them to be as they were made, so be it.

I also agree that AKC standards should change to reflect this. This is a great point. He is a beautiful brindel boxer and I receive compliments whenever I take him out. If he is in perfect shape, why shouldn't I be able to show him without having to get his ears/tail cropped? There's nothing cuter than this bouncing puppy runing at you with ears flopping everywhere!

I strongly agree that it should be the owners preference, but since most of these dogs are house pets, the need to crop will be greatly minimized.

The AKC changing their mindset and rules will probably get more results than banning tail docking. Mainly because if the breeder doesn't dock at 3 days old, it'll be more of a pain to dock it later when the puppy is older.

SUGARBIRD
If an animal career doesn't work out for you, I have another option in mind. You should be a comedian.

Your post suggesting that AKC make some sort of alteration to benefit dogs is very funny. This rates right up there with lawyer jokes.

AKC isn't going to change their mindset until the parent clubs do. The parent clubs are the ones that write the AKC breed club standards.

Here is another point of view. Think about what a Doberman would look like "natural". You wouldn't want someone running up to it thinking it's a friendly Coon Hound. (I'm not saying all Dobie's are mean, just protective). Dobermans' have a look that makes people more careful around them. This is really the only other thing I could come up with that would be in defense to docking/cropping.

APPLESMOM1
LOL!!!!!!!!!


You and sugarbird should do a comedy team act.

quote:

I'm also against cropping ears. I know the arguement is that dogs will get infection, but most breeds that crop don't have ear flaps so long that they keep mositure in. In fact, the only dogs that maybe SHOULD have it's ears cropped are Beagles and Bassetts!

The reason I'm against ear cropping is a study I read done by a scientist. The study showed that dogs with ears trimmed into that "alert" stance got into fights at an alarming rate when compared to other dogs. Poor dogs. They were probably trying to speak proper dog language, but their ears wouldn't go back into what dogs read as a friendly, submissive greeting! Their ears were permanently placed into an aggressive stance, so they were more often attacked.

NOt to ignore the whole topic here, but...

I believe ear cropping is the meanest possible thing to do to a dog. Imagine for a minute, you have a baby, and all the rage is for one arm to be stuck straight up in the air. So you surgically have that baby's arm stuck above their head (which to me a dog's ear is just like an arm when it comes to communication) wouldn't that be the most uncomfortable way to grow up? with your arm above your head and unable to lay down beside your body in a natural position? As an adult, wouldn't you hate your parents for putting you through such misery? Even if you adapted to the uncomfortableness, it would still be a royal pain in the butt to never be able to wave at someone or to make hand gestures.

Now let's say it's all the rage for you to only have one leg, so you take your baby and have one leg removed. Same concept.

Would you do this stuff to your child? NO! God what horrible person I am for even THINKING about this!

But animals are like children. They don't know any better and they can't defend themselves or stop you from doing whatever you want with them.


the tail and ears are the dog's for of communication and movement, to hinder them is uncomfortable and just plain mean.

The ear thing? it's worse than taildocking because the dog KNOWS it can't move it's ears, but it doesn't KNOW it's SUPPOSED to have a tail.

I personally would never do tail docking, but the breeder who's list I patiently wait on, Has Champion Pembroke Welsh Corgis and it is a breed requirment for show.

quote:

I personally would never do tail docking, but the breeder who's list I patiently wait on, Has Champion Pembroke Welsh Corgis and it is a breed requirment for show.

This is exactly the issue. As an agility competitor, if I wanted a normally docked breed, I wouldn't be able to get an undocked version so the dog could use it's tail as a rudder because breeders will dock the entire litter young. While I understand why they dock at a young age, I wouldn't know which one would be mine to avoid the docking.

It's one of the reasons I avoid a breed that required docking or cropping. I'll know my dogs will com fully equipped for what I need them to do!

I wasn't going to bring up the unusual shape of the GSP's tail prior to docking because I didn't have any way to effectivly describe it. Then by dumb luck I re-found this website with great photos that illustrate the tails better than words could ever do!

On the first page and the fifth page there are many examples of GSP's with long tails. If you look carefully, you'll see that many of them narrow considerably just beyond the point where they would be docked. With such a narrow and lightly covered tail this is what leaves them open for serious injury. This is one breed that does not have pretty tails!

The photos also provide excellent examples of the flexibility I mentioned in an earlier post.

German Shorthaired Pointers in Europe

I don't see anything wrong with appearance in a GSP with a tail. Maybe it's just cause you're used to them being tailess Well, short tails I should say.

But I do see your point about the tails being narrower at the end and thus being prone to injury. This is probably the result of people not paying attention to tail genes, as the tails get docked anyway. So you don't know what could potentially be wrong with the tails.

I find it interesting that those of us here who have been active in a dock tailed breed are ok with docking, and those who have not, prefer to keep tails intact. Just an observation I've made after participating in several discussions about tail docking in 3 different forums.

quote:

Originally posted by sugarbird:
I don't see anything wrong with appearance in a GSP with a tail. Maybe it's just cause you're used to them being tailess Well, short tails I should say.

But I do see your point about the tails being narrower at the end and thus being prone to injury. This is probably the result of people not paying attention to tail genes, as the tails get docked anyway. So you don't know what could potentially be wrong with the tails.

I find it interesting that those of us here who have been active in a dock tailed breed are ok with docking, and those who have not, prefer to keep tails intact. Just an observation I've made after participating in several discussions about tail docking in 3 different forums.

Tail set is of vital importance in the breed, but you're right, since the breeders never see their dogs with long tails, the shape or narrowing of the tail never comes into consideration.

The reaon I'm okay with it is because I know how painful tail injuries in an adult dog can be. I also know exactly what tail docking entails and I'm completley convinced that it does no harm to the puppies if done properly by a vet.

Just as sure as I am that the proper use of a choke chain collar is harmless to a dog.

By the same token I'm against breeders doing their own tails and dew claws as I am novice trainers going to pet smart and buying a choke chain to jerk their dog around with while taking it for a walk.

A couple I knew some time ago had a lovely chocolate lab mix (I think with a st bernard this dog was HUGE) with his tail fully intact. There was just one problem, when this dog wagged it's tail, it would wag it with such force that if it hit anything the tail would receive injuries. Typically the skin splitting.

I was actually wacked in the side by this dogs tail and received a rather nasty bruise.

SOmetimes when the dog would wag it's tail by a corner of a wall there it would get cut and torn, but the big galute didn't even realise it's tail was a bloody mess and in it's happiness was flinging blood all over the place.

Finally, after an untold amount of trips to the vet to get the tail repaired, they finally decided to give in to advice to have the tail removed. They didn't want to because they thought it was cruel, but they did come to terms with it being crueler to let the dog bleed all over the place if he wagged too close to something.

The dog came out fine and actually seemingly happier but now he wags with his whole butt and it's adorable.

I'm not really condoning it, but sometimes it's just necessary.

Tail docking is for cosmetic purposes ONLY. They don't NEED to be docked it only hurts them afterwards. All vets are against it. I suggest you don't dock they're tails.

quote:

Originally posted by junescrater716:
Tail docking is for cosmetic purposes ONLY. They don't NEED to be docked it only hurts them afterwards. All vets are against it. I suggest you don't dock they're tails.

1. Tail docking is not done for "cosmetic purposes only" in many breeds. It's done to prevent unnecessary pain and injury.

2.There is absolutley no valid proof that tail docking when done properly hurts a dog afterwards.

3. All vets are not against tail docking.

Junescrater, you've made three erronious statements in one paragraph. Obviously you've had no experience on this topic and you truly do love dogs and don't want to see them hurt unnecessarily. To learn about any issue it's best to surround oneself with proven facts from both sides or actual hands on experience.

Because of your love for dogs it would be a good idea for you to inform yourself about the topic so you can see both sides of the issue.

Here are some links to information on the other side of the topic.

Vizla's on tail docking

Another source

Educate yourself and then post your own opinions based on actual knowledge. Don't waste your time repeating meaningless blanket statements perpetuated by hordes of uninformed, armchair do gooders.

APPLESMOM1
Thanks to your response to junescrater. I would not have been so nice.

Yeah. If anything for the hunting dogs it is necessary for them to be docked. My TFT has a docked tail so I got curious as to why they do it. I saw pictures of hunting dogs (forget which ones) that were supposed to be docked and weren't. The injury to the tail looked so painful. After that I really didn't question anymore. It serves a purpose.

Although I'm not sure if this is true or not. My mom said that they have began to dock the tails of Belgian Shepherds for police work. Something about their tails wagging so hard that it could disrupt a crime scene or something. Which I could see cause we had one and she could clear a table with a swipe...lol.