quote:

Originally posted by shaiya1:
I would like to see stricter laws regarding spaying/neutering, but I don't think a $100 permit would work. $100 is far less than most spays/neuters cost. If they try to force you to do one or the other, many people would pay the $100 for the permit to NOT alter their pet rather than paying the $200+ for the "alteration". Another problem... everyone is supposed to have a lisence for their pet. I, personally know of several people that dont have one. The only way to catch them is to do door-to-door checks. How we they be able to ensure that all animals are spayed/neutered?

I was thinking that if vets would help they could charge more for services of un-altered pets (the county already charges more for licensing of un-altered pets). However, maybe then owners would be less likely to get vet care for their animals. Bottom line... There is no easy solution.

Of course not all would register, and some would get by, but by making sure that police officers and other officials check every time they go to a house with dogs, see a dog on the streets, etc, it would help.

Also consider the person who does illegally breed their dog, how are they going to advertise pups for sale and make big bucks anymore? They can't advertise in the newspaper, they can't put up local fliers etc. That in itself would be a bid deterrent in breeding as well.

It would be a good start in the right direction.

But that is simply unFAIR there ARE other reasons to leave a dog intact BESIDES breeding. conformation shows and personal protection are two.

Dogs should be and in most cases NEED to be left in tact in these instances why should I have to pay more when I'm a responsible owner who simply wants to compete in certain sports?

This ONLY affects responsible people anyway, ever seen a dog in the ghetto registered? Where are half the BYB's in the ghetto you only affect then innocent people who have for some reason not chosen to spay or neuter. Showing dogs is ALREADY expensive much less 100 bucks (which could be a month of food for my dog instead)

A lot of people are responsible owners. But many more, aren't. Unless you are showing your dog and want to better the dog breed why does a dog need to be intact? It doesn't. A female in heat is stressful for her and the dogs around her. If you are keeping her intact because you believe she's not 'whole' if she isn't, or believe it is harmful to her health, that is not an acceptable reason. BYB in the 'ghetto' who are breeding dogs need to have their dogs taken away and they lose out. But how did they acquire their dogs? Probably from other BYB who did not get their dogs spayed or neutered for the sake of making money. Now there had been a mandatory spay and neuter law then they would not have been able to sell their puppies to other irresponsible BYB.

Uhm.... I stated exactly why a dog should be kept intact. people who DO NOT wish to breed and just do shows for fun.

People training dogs for personal protection or Schutzhund. Dogs training for Mondio, French Ring etc.

By the by both of my females are altered as I do not show or participate in those sports however my next male will be left intact as he will be trained in Schutzhund and Personal protection

I was not attacking you badkittyamy. May I ask why dogs must stay intact for Schutzhund or personal protection? I'm curious. If people do not wish to breed their show dogs but are showing them, then that's fine. They're showing them and that's a good reason for them to stay intact.

quote:

Originally posted by badkittyamy:
But that is simply unFAIR there ARE other reasons to leave a dog intact BESIDES breeding. conformation shows and personal protection are two.

Dogs should be and in most cases NEED to be left in tact in these instances why should I have to pay more when I'm a responsible owner who simply wants to compete in certain sports?

This ONLY affects responsible people anyway, ever seen a dog in the ghetto registered? Where are half the BYB's in the ghetto you only affect then innocent people who have for some reason not chosen to spay or neuter. Showing dogs is ALREADY expensive much less 100 bucks (which could be a month of food for my dog instead)

Of course there are other reasons, but I really think that people like you, badkittyamy, are in the minority of things. I mean as to showing, protection work, guard training etc.

I guess I really don't know how hard it would be to justify your reasons for intact dogs against spay and neuter laws. For now I am for mandatory because I think that for the most part it would be in the better of things.

I'm totally willing to be shown more information regarding where it's being enforced and what their rules are on it, and how harsh/hardcore they are being against ANYONE having intact dogs, but until then, my stance is what it is.

I don't live in the ghetto, in fact, the nearest ghetto to me is about and hour away in a metro area. I live in a state where puppy mills are everywhere and in my county alone about 10,000 puppies come out of it alone. That's a COUNTY, not a country, just one section of county in a state of many. Hence my thoughts on this particular subject.

My local humane society is filled with Lab crosses, because everyone thinks that the Lab is the all around family dog and everyone breeds them like there is no tomorrow. There are no serious breeders in my area, nor any serious dog clubs or enthusiasts.

In my case, region affects my decisions towards this subject very much.

I live in the ghetto but there arent to many BYBs atleast in my city but I know about an hour away there is alot. I think keeping them intact can keep the drive and everything but if your not showing or doing some sports you should have them altered so you dont cause accidental breedings

Again though while I may be in the minority I am a very broke minority. I think education is the key versus forcing laws that can affect the broke (aka me =P) If we educate people about buying from ethical breeders then the byb's get no business.

Again it would be very hard to enforce this law in impoverished areas. By law in Savannah your dog must be registered be contained in a yard etc. However these laws are NEVER enforced in the ghetto. I am constantly chased by loose dogs on my bike and the police and animal control simply don't want to come out there / deal with it.

I already think it's stupid I have to pay to register my dog with the city. It's easier to have a child than a dog! If they can't keep dogs behind fences and kids under 16 on bikes in helmets and protective gear (as the law states) How are they going to stop a BYB? They don't have to advertise in the papers most don't because it costs money many use kijiji.com or false adoptions on craigslist.

I scrape by as it is I'm not American and so can;t work here. laws like that only compound onto those costs. $100 might not seem like much until you add in the 56 something it costs to register a dog per year that is intact and then the fact that if you don't own your own place most places require a pet deposit. (At the place I'm moving into it's 300 non refundable per dog)

Add in the fact that spuetering your dog can be an over 200 dollar expense? That's really a bit much. If they want people to neuter their dogs I STILL say there need to be FREE services.

I'm from an island 21 miles long we make far less money than any us state so how can we afford 50 dollar alteration male OR female and we have a free service that will come and pick up your animals FOR you.

To me mandatory spay and neuter like BSL are a big ugly bandaid slapped over a cut artery. it is not the solution just a quick patch up because the government is to lazy to implement programs that would actually employ change.

For the past couple summers the county where I live has hired temporary summer help to do door-to-door checks for licenses on dogs. It was mainly a way to help the county get money because they estimated that only 50% of pets were lisenced. I suppose they could do the same for spay/neutering. Females would be tough, though. You would actually have to see paperwork proving that the spay was done. Of course, you would get all the excuses... "I was just going to make an appointment", "I show him", "he's breeding quality", etc...

How could they prove that none of these excuses were true? Again, it's not an easy fix.

To spay or neuter a pet for free would be difficult. Someone would have to pay something. Part of getting a dog is to make sure you CAN afford paying for the license and are able to spay and neuter. Education is very important. But of course, what about those people who just don't care? There will be some. The first step to having mandatory spay and neuter is to educate people. Then people will start enforcing things more.

Again if the Bahamas can afford it how can America not? I hear the same excuse every time. Low cost spay and neuter in America I still to expensive for the lower means income.

I think vets in America charge far too much for the operation if we can provide the same quality for $50. How is it that the humane society here can charge 50 for the same exact procedure but in America you can easily run into $200 charges. Seems a bit odd to me.

The spay and neutering of dogs skyrocketed once proud paws started offering their free service and they have no problem keeping donations coming in. They have a quota of dogs per year and once they go over that they begin charging 50 which includes the van pickup.

My main issue with spay and neuter is that it is NEVER implemented properly. Many places that have a spay and neuter cover all dogs unless you have a breeding license.

We can say pretty things like unless you get a permit but government doesn't work that way. What age is the dog required to be fixed by, many people with large breed dogs wait for the dog to grow as studies have not yet shown if it affects their bone and growth rate.

I do not believe in punishing the responsible because of the stupid. It seems a very American ideal however.

We don't know what the ratio of responsible owners to not are. So you can't say we are so much in the minority. Obviously you hear more about the trouble makers because they cause trouble. Yes there are many dogs in shelters but one person can simply be a puppy miller so you can't judge it by unwanted pet population either.

If there was a government in place that would create a proper spay and neuter law I might support it but I have never seen it be successful or worded in a way that allowed non breeders to keep an intact dog.

It is always ALL dogs no matter what, all dogs except licensed breeders or all dogs unless you get this permit here that costs $1,000+

Maybe America is better at spaying and neutering? Why would we be punishing the responsible? If you are responsible then there is nothing to lose. Of course dogs have to be bred somehow. And dogs are still bred for certain tasks. I'm not talking about getting your dog spayed or neutered if you show a high quality dog or if you train a dog for protection. Mandatory spay and neuter is for people those irresponsible people who get a puppy then decide to breed it one day to make some money. This will not affect responsible breeders.

Maybe Americans do a better job at spaying and neutering after all? Or maybe there are more dogs around here to spay and neuter. If you are a responsible person breeding a high quality show dog or breeding a dog that will have a job in the future you will not be affected. That is a responsible person. The people who would be affected are the people who buy a puppy then decide to breed it for money.

You bring up good points badkittyamy.

You are completely right in saying education is the way to go.

I see the points in many things you say, but it's also hard to relate or imagine some of the issues you bring up because of the latter mentioned regional differences.

I think the best thing any of can do is work locally and think globally when it comes to the welfare of our beloved pets.

Again talltail it's the same exact service. American vets are educated through the same system as Bahamian vets as to learn veterinary service a Bahamian must go to school in the states it is not a course our college offers.


We have a huge stray dog problem, you can not walk down a street in the Bahamas and see at least one stray dog.

http://www.proudpaws.org/
If every county had 1 program offering at least 1,500 free spay and neutering I think it would help a LOT

What you say again is a good idea but I point again to the laws in place. They are usually sweeping and badly executed. Again When I see ONE of these laws passed and change happen I'll support them. If the law was worded as clearly as we put it sure, but it NEVER is, breeders are not always exempt either. Many places have said put up or shut up no matter the situation. Others state purebred dogs only. How will they judge this? AKC status? The apbt is not even registrable in the AKC. What lesser known breeds are going to be considered mutts? the last article I posted will show statistics of exactly how ineffective these laws are.

A few articles on the subject:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2007/05/29/petscol.DTL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/28/BAG8NOC0OD129.DTL
http://www.cfasouthern.org/cfa/Breeder%20Licensing%20-%20Opposition.pdf
http://www.helpinganimals.com/res_lawspayord.asp
http://mysite.verizon.net/res8w765/id20.html

PLEASE NOTE I do NOT support PeTA or any of their beliefs or practices. I use it only because it shows and lists the laws in place and the exact wording of them.

I'm not a vet, so I don't know why spaying and neutering costs a certain amount in once place and doesn't in another.

Doing a limited amount of free spaying and neutering during a certain time would help a lot. My concern would be people taking advantage of that.

my cat i got was spayed i hated the stupid no kitten thing but i love my cat

Your cat will love the 'no kitten thing' though!

I'm sorry, but 200+ for sp/eutering?? Where the heck do you people live? I've never payed more than 70$ for a cat spay, that includes rabies vaccine, and 120$ for a dog spay, and that was because of complications. Neuters cost even less. Is Texas that much cheaper than everywhere else?

Plus when you adopt from the SPCA, that includes a certificate for a sp/euter at one of the local vets if the animal hasn't been sp/eutered already. It's included in the adoption costs. So there's no excuse not to.

I live in Western New York and after adopting my two boys from a shelter, I paid $169 for one of my dogs to be neutered. this did however include a $29 lab fee that was optional which was a surgical screening. of course both of my boys are neutered but it was expensive. there is no spay or neuter law in my county, i just felt the health benefits out weighed any cost.