I wanted to cross post this here because it came up on another forum and I found it to be very good advice and holds very true with my feelings on dog parks.
"When we (trainers, behaviorists, breeders) say to socialize your dog - our concept of socialization is very different from the average person's and I always have to "check" myself to be sure that I am giving a complete explanation to the dog owner.
So here goes...
A dog's "social" needs are very different from a human's and are in many ways much more complex. When we say - "Wow that dog is welll socialized" - what we really mean is that the dog is fluent in presenting neutral behaviors to other canines. Imagine walking through a room of 50 people with 50 dogs and having total control of your dog with his/her focus on YOU and not the environment. Now - that is a well socialized dog Click on image to open in new window
How do we get there? Well, you won't get there in a dog park unless its well managed and each pet is licensed, current on all vacs and NEUTRAL. In addition a great park is spotlessly clean and each handler/dog is permitted on an annual basis. You won't get the best advice in a dog park either because - guess what - savy handlers DON'T go there.
What we do is we socialize our dogs every day on various levels, at different thresholds and in constantly changing safe environments. We have dogs that are "dogs" but exhibit "dog behaviors that are acceptable in a human world. We call this Social Adaptability.
Instead, dog parks are highly charged environments with a constant and viable state of arousal for each animal. The learning curve is high and presents dogs with an excellent opportunity to learn inappropriate behaviors because if you keep going back - the dog builds confidence and within time becomes more bold - and more "dog-like." or closer to its primal heritage. Are you with me on this?
A high level of arousal - when left unchecked - reaches agitation stage. At this stage of a behavioral pattern, you are about a milisecond away from aggression and that is not a comfortable place to be. This teaches your dog nothing. So as time goes on - your dog's level of Social Tolerance may become diminished - which is where you find yourself right now. This behavior that used to be just at the "park" may begin to generalize to many different situations and you may find that your dog is becoming aggressive on lead or possibly even - pushing YOU a bit just to test those waters too. Dogs are pretty smart and will apply a success here to a success there. Get it?
Also, because dogs come and go, the social dynamic is constantly changing and a more dominant dog will learn to assert themselves in a type of "overstatement" in their body language to ward off confrontations. We call these behaviors "Out of Context" behaviors and they are generally the calling card of an insecure dog who has been overstimulated. Generally...
This is what your dog is doing. She is nipping from behind in a "dirty bite" method because she has not quite captured the confidence to do it muzzle on yet. But if you keep taking her there one of 2 things will happen...
She'll get the confidence and become a true bully while off lead and become "dog hot or dog sharp"
Or - she'll get her rear end kicked a few times by a dog bigger and badder and she will react out of fear. Both senarios are bad and neither is a line you want to cross.
Stop going to the dog park and find a trainer who can help you train her properly. Teach her to practice a high level of impulse control, social tolerance and social adaptability while in the presence of both humans and canines. This is the point when you will have a well socialized dog.
Jeannie Bates
Founder - SW Florida Professional Dog Trainers Alliance
Well, I disagree. I credit my local dog park for making my dog the well-socialized girl she is. She is not a bully, nor has she had her but*t kicked at the park. In fact, none of the dogs seem to be bullies and I rarely see a fight. I know that socialization in dogs means different things to different people. As important as it is to have your dog behave nicely around humans, I find it just as important for them to behave nicely around other dogs. Everyone is afraid to let their dogs interact with other dogs. Dogs no longer seem to know how to act when they encounter a strange dog. Even at some training classes I've attended the trainer discourages any interaction.
I own my second Akita. I love the breed, but the natural "dog-aggression" scared me. My first Akita was not around many new dogs and therefore wanted to fight every time she encountered one. When we got our second one, we were determined to do things differently. What better place is there to introduce them to a bunch of new dogs than a dog park? We started taking her around 4 months old and we go as often as we can. She is the rare Akita that will accept any strange dog. I don't think we could have ever had this result without the dog park.
That being said... not all dog parks are created equal. I know there are some bad ones. Mine happens to be clean and is filled with owners that take very good care of their dogs. I encourage everyone to take their dogs to a dog park. It has done wonders for mine. I think that if more people let their dogs interact with other dogs we wouldn't have all the nasty, neurotic and aggressive dogs that seem to be so prevalent today.
You encourage people to take their dog to the dog park without knowing at all what their own dog parks are like?
Sorry that's the worst advice I've ever heard. I have never come across a dog park that isn't unruly and almost every breed specific forum I have been to advises against them. While you may have the one nice park the fact is MOST are NOT.
That's like saying "My neighbourhood is great i can walk around at 3 in the morning everyone should walk around their neighbourhood at 5 in the morning" despite the fact that most neighbourhood's this would be a bad idea. Same with the majority of dog parks.
The park here in Savannah is private and I'm sure the dog owners take great care of their pets however that does not eradicate the fact that over time it is no longer neutral territory. long term members certainly do form a pack mentality and all it take is for one dog to come in that they do not like for there to be a very Huge problem.
All it takes is ONCE, one time for a fight to happen and you could have a dog aggression problem on your hands for the rest of your dogs life to work with. is it really worth it? If you want to socialise your dog around other dogs why not introduce it to dogs you know?
I have no problem with my dog interacting with other dogs. But a pack of dogs off leash in an established area is a different scenario entirely. In fact I can't think of a single well respected trainer or dog behaviourist that agrees with the idea of off leash dog parks.
I mean want to see the problems with dog parks? Go to any site with dog forums Dogster, wherever and just search for dog parks to see all the incidents that regularly happen at them.
What better place to introduce your dogs to a bunch of dogs? On leash on your own terms, obedience classes. I could easily go on, the dog park is the absolute WORST place to introduce dogs to each other.
I am glad that the dog park is a good experience for you however it is certainly not something I would ever suggest as a means of socialization. All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the bunch. Yeah once something happens I'm guessing that person would be removed but isn't it a bit late then?
I only tell people that I know (friends/family) to go to the park that I go to. (Although I won't hesitate to share my good experiences with others on forums like these).
There are many of us "regulars" that attend the same park often and it still seems to be neutral turf. I have been going for three years now and I doubt that my dog will become aggressive.
My last Akita was introduced to friends' and families dogs and she was fine, but she was still aggressive if a new dog was around. Being good with a select few dogs does not make your dog non-dog-aggressive.
If you ever went to a good dog park and saw your dog interacting, playing and having a great time you would know where I'm coming from. I could sit there all day and watch the dogs playing.
I guess that since I've never had a problem I'm in ignorant bliss, but I am so glad I have a great place to take my dog. (By the way...I have 50 acres of vacant land behind my house for my dog to run on, but I still drive an hour and pay to let her play at the dog park- that's how importantly I feel about it.)
I like the dog park - to a point. The dog park in my small city is literally 2-3 minutes from my house, and is a pretty nice park in itself. However, I encounter a lot of people with uncontrolable dogs, dogs who bully around other dogs, and rather unpredictable agressive dogs. What makes it worse, is the owners who A) Laugh it off, B) Just don't do anything, C) Say "Oh he's just play." or D) Say, "He's just asserting himself and putting the other dog in his place." I don't know what they're thinking when they do/say these things. Especially when their dog is obviously harming another dog. Now, if you have a dog who is always mounting the other dogs, and the dog turns and snaps at that mounting dog, that is another thing entirely (IMO) I don't think those dogs even belong in the park.
I only go to the park when there are either No dogs, or very very few dogs (1 or 2) that we usually know or are rather mellow. My ACD Remington isn't really interested in other dogs, he would much rather chase a tennis ball. And sometimes, the other dogs "don't like that". So quite often we just stay outside of the fenced in area and utilize the rest of the park to throw the ball and walk. I do not use the dog park really as a place to socialize, because we do Obedience/Agility classes, and I think he is (for 8 months anyway) a very well socialized dog. Now, having said that, I attribute this to having been around dogs (most not strange - and when it was at the dog park it was dogs I had actually previously met with my other dog and had a feel for the dog). For example, he has two best friends in the neighborhood; a 1 year old Border Collie and a 5 month old Boxer. We meet dogs at the beach as well, they just sniff Remington (he doesn't sniff back normally because that ball is his job, and that's what he is into - but sometimes he will sniff too).
So, all in all, I think that some people spoil dog parks for the rest of us. The responces on this post all have their accuracies IMO, and I think they are a combonation of truths. I think dog parks can help dog-on-dog interaction if they are small community parks where you're going there with only a few dogs that you usually know - or even don't know but they meet and they're all-right. But on the other hand, those few "misguided dogs" who have no doggie mannors or mannors in general thrown into the mix, make for a terrible experience. I would like to say my dog is well rounded because he has done 2 different training classes, with 12 different dogs, minds me, knows commands, and is rather well mannored - but I think that in some part, the dog park has enabled him to be able to not get really excited or freaked out about new dogs, because he knows what they are, what they're going to do, and he doesn't need to mind. Now, the beach, woods, and other parks can also take credit for this as well.
So, basically I have no idea lol. I bring my dog to the park often, we stay outside the fence mostly and go there to use the space to throw the ball. Period.
Sorry if this wasn't as great and usefull as I thought it was going to be..
LOL that's fine it's sad some of the older forum members have dissapeared I expected to see a few more reactions to the topic. Maybe I should have asked instead for the fifteen millionth time on this board.
Originally posted by badkittyamy: LOL that's fine it's sad some of the older forum members have dissapeared I expected to see a few more reactions to the topic. Maybe I should have asked instead for the fifteen millionth time on this board.
"what's your pet's name/ your fav breed teehee"
LOL
It's so true.
badkittyamy, I know a more happening board that's more adult based if you'd like the url.
I would be very cautious when it comes to dog parks. I would never take a new puppy to one, if an aggressive dog was there and when for your dog, then you have a behavior problem puppy. There's a dog park about 20-25 minutes away from where I live but I've never taken my dogs to it. I would really have to do some research before taking my dogs to a local park. Believe me, I've heard some people brag over how big and tough their dog is.
I acknowledge that there are some bad dog parks. I have only been to one and it has been wonderful. It is a county park that requires a permit ($6.00/day or $45/year) I think the cost keeps a lot of people out. It is not only manned by county park officers, but also is well-policed by the patrons that go there. I have never witnessed an aggressive dog there, but I have no doubt that if there were one it would be removed immediately. I can only base my opinions on my experiences and it's sad that more dog parks can't be like the one I go to. I wish everyone had a safe, clean park to take their dogs to. Of course, if I thought my dog could be in danger (or put someone else's dog in danger) I wouldn't go either.
No doubt you will be getting many responses with many different opinions about dog parks. You need to ask the experts.
Next time you take your dog to the vet, ask her and the techs and staff weather they take their dogs to dog parks.
Then talk to some good breeders. Ask them about their opinion about dog parks. Ask professional trainers weather they think dog parks are a good idea. Don't forget feedback from service dog training groups. Find out if they think that dog parks are a good way to socialize dogs.
These experts will help you make the corect decision.
Now, not everyone brings their dogs to dog parks to become socialized: I know a lot of people who bring them to the park to "run off some energy" - which is what I do with my dog a lot of the time. But - the difference is, I bring my dog outside of the fenced aread to throw a ball for an hour or so (it's a nice large area for throwing. We have two buddies, two catahoula leopard dogs that do the same thing: ball crazy and just chase the ball the whole time - we see them every now and then. We also go there with my friend's Border Collie and Boxer - as well as let them play around at our houses/yards. I try to walk him in the morning around 6AM for 20-45 minutes (as long as the weather isn't too-too bad) - so that helps during the day. So when I get home he is wound up and ready to go. When the weather gets nicer, I think I will slowly be swaying away from the Dog Park, because there will be so many other things to do with my dog - but I think also the park will be worse because more people will be flocking there with their dogs. And now that I'm thinking about it, there are way too many aggresive/dominant dogs at the park - and if you have two dogs that just don't click; well, it could all just go down hill from there. Luckily (I think) my dog is very submissive to other dogs and has never been in any kind of squal, but I want to keep it that way. I think I might look into other forms of exercise outside of the park - but I still may go there when there are a few dogs that we know (like our friends), or to use the big field area. I appologize, I really like to write.. Now I'm done.
Like I said before, talk to some dog experts. Ask them if they take their dogs to dog parks. People that make their living through dogs probably know what they are talking about.
Originally posted by godiezzil: No doubt you will be getting many responses with many different opinions about dog parks. You need to ask the experts.
Next time you take your dog to the vet, ask her and the techs and staff weather they take their dogs to dog parks.
Then talk to some good breeders. Ask them about their opinion about dog parks. Ask professional trainers weather they think dog parks are a good idea. Don't forget feedback from service dog training groups. Find out if they think that dog parks are a good way to socialize dogs.
These experts will help you make the corect decision.
I bet they'll all have different and biased opinions too. Just because someone knows the anatomy and how to medically teat a dog, or make two dogs have puppies doesn't mean that their dog based opinion is any better or more informed then anyone else's.
An opinion is just that. People can make their own choices.
Most of the experts I have talked to about dog parks have a definite opinion about them. There are the service dog groups that give folks puppies to raise and socialize before they go on to the serious training. Most of these groups don't like their dogs taken to dog parks. Maybe they are fuddy duddies, but maybe they have a good reason.
The few dog parks that I have visited seem to have very little policing and control. I have seen small children taken into them. I have seen people walk into them with bags of hamburgers. I have witnesswed unruly and vicious dogs brought in by clueless people.
I personally would not take any of my dogs into such a place. I can control and take responsibility for my dogs. I have no control over others and their dogs.
If anyone wants to take their dogs into such place then go for it.
